Comment by aryehof | Hacker News Reader

Comment by aryehof | Hacker News Reader

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In the UK, Parliament is sovereign. The Judiciary are independent, and only make rulings based on current law and precedent. Some sought clarification that the current Government (executive branch) could not invoke Brexit without regard to Parliament. The Courts decided that was the case according to current law, precedent and convention. The Government then put it to Parliament that they be given the power, that passed, meaning if put to the Courts again, they would have to now find in favor of the Government.

Frankly a triumph of correct process being followed, and an example of the real independence and effectiveness of different branches of government in the UK.

Parliament is the people, which is why it is sovereign. In the USA, so much power has been devolved to the executive branch (the President) by the people (Congress) that the President has increasingly become sovereign, and access to legal recourse increasingly difficult. One reason the USA is number 21 on the 2016 Democracy Index, and now in the "Flawed Democracy" category.

"In the UK, Parliament is sovereign."

The EU courts can declare any bit of UK Parliamentary action 'unconstitutional'.

Within the EU, UK Parliament is not quite 'sovereign' :)

I don't know why someone would down-vote this.

Here it is from the EU [1]

The EU courts and constitution have supremacy over UK Parliament - which is therefore 'not sovereign'.

Technically, you could say that Parliament has to ratify EU laws, which would mean it maintains a degree of sovereignty, but in practice, all softs of rulings made from the EU high courts override UK laws and alter policy.

[1] http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-legal-principles/eu-law...

You are downvoted because you are incorrect. The UK Parliament can decide to adhere to EU law, and just as easily take that away. Parliamentary sovereignty which includes the inability to bind or restrict any future Parliament, is the foundation of UK constitutional law - http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/sovereignty/

The EU courts can declare any bit of UK Parliamentary action 'unconstitutional'.

Only in areas where the EU has competence, and these are explicitly enumerated in various treaties; by default, the EU has no competence, so it only has powers to legislate where those powers are explicitly agreed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_conferral

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv%3...

"The EU courts can declare any bit of UK Parliamentary action 'unconstitutional'. Only in areas where the EU has competence,"

Yes. And that's a pretty long list that touches on nearly every level of governance.

In fact - that list is in some ways more pervasive that the Canadian governments ability to intercede in Provincial affairs.

Fun fact: Canada does not even have 'free trade' within it's provinces as the Federal government doesn't effectively have the ability to regulate it. Yet nobody would claim that 'Ontario' is sovereign.

It would seem you've provided evidence that the EU rules over a very wide area of governmental competences, making it rather difficult to claim that the UK remains sovereign.

that's a pretty long list that touches on nearly every level of governance

This isn't even close to true. It doesn't cover:

- National security

- Healthcare policy and resourcing

- Welfare and pensions policy

- Education policy

...which, not coincidentally, are the highest budgeted functions of the UK government[1].

I should also include criminal justice and fiscal policy (seeing as the UK is non-Eurozone), and that the UK has competence over non-eu migration and asylum; this is politically important but not a large budget item on its own.

There are cooperation and collaboration elements of the above (particularly in the area of common defence), but that's not to say that the policies are EU competencies. For example, freedom-of-movement rules require that pensions must be paid by the country in which they were insured, even if the individual is paid that pension in a different country. However, one country might have a pensionable age of 60 where another is 67.

[1] http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/government_expenditure.htm...

I think you just helped my argument.

The EU does not maintain operational competence over these areas, just as the Canadian federal government and the US federal government do not maintain competence over most areas either.

But just as in USA/Canada - the EU laws reign supreme, they create regulations, they coordinate policy.

So - not only are EU laws and court rulings override national laws and rulings - the EU does in fact regulate and manage those 'very large budgetary' elements, just as in other federal states, like the US and Canada.

The EU interdicts on Healthcare:

https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/health_en

The EU interdicts on Social Welfare:

http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=750

The EU interdicts on education:

http://ec.europa.eu/education/policy/school_en

The EU has made several rulings with respect to services and access that have overridden national policy.

The EU will determine who can, and who cannot receive services, if services don't meet a minimum 'humanitarian' requirement, etc. etc.

If the UK for exampled tried to privatize it's healthcare system (not suggesting they should) - and make a US-style 'pay for it' type model - the EU would step in a major way.

Same thing for schooling and other services.

I'm sorry but I don't think you can say that since the 'EU does not maintain competence' in these areas, that they don't act like a federal state.

They still 'own' the show at the end of the day.

And to boot: the level of interdiction is only increasing. Within 30 years, many of those systems will be federalized at the EU level - or at least - have enough regulatory elements such that they de-facto run the show.

Markel and others have already called for an EU Army.

Following that to its logical conclusion would mean that EU courts can decide that Parliament isn't actually allowed to decide to invoke article 50. One might wonder why they're even trying to leave.

Parliament is in fact sovereign, and always has been. EU court decisions apply in the UK exactly to the extent that the UK government permits them to. e.g. When EU courts rule that UK prisoners have to be allowed to vote in UK elections, the government ignores that.

When it ascents to unpopular EU laws, it does so voluntarily, after having been involved in drafting them, something people would be wise to consider when imagining that "returning sovereignty" to the government will magically fix everything.

"Following that to its logical conclusion would mean that EU courts can decide that Parliament isn't actually allowed to decide to invoke article 50. One might wonder why they're even trying to leave."

The ability to succeed from a union doesn't imply 'sovereignty'.

The State of Texas can legally leave the US Federation at any time.

It has been established that the Province of Quebec in Canada could withdraw from the Canadian Confederation.

Scotland and Catalonia could effectively exit their respective federal entities - not by any obvious legal recourse but it surely could happen.

And yet, federal law in each of those regimes applies.

'Following your logic to it's conclusion' - Holyrood, 'L'Assemble National' and the State of Texas are 'sovereign' entities?

Parliament is not sovereign in areas wherein it as agreed to absolve that authority.

It's hard to claim otherwise - there is a EU judiciary that can overrule local laws in more areas that it cannot, certainly the bulk of the important ones.

It's not hard, you are just making some extreme mental gymnastics to say what you want to say.

If governor of texas stops following federal law, then US has federal institutions which will arrest such governor. In that sense, Texas is not soverign, because it HAS to follow US federal law. It doesn't get any choice in that matter.

On the other hand, UK can just say they won't follow a certain EU law, and absolutely nothing will happen. EU won't come to arrest Theresa May, or send troops to occupy the house of commons until they agree to follow EU regulations. It's a voluntary union, with zero threat for not following regulations.

No - your statement gravely misrepresents what the EU is.

"UK can just say they won't follow a certain EU law, and absolutely nothing will happen"

Absolutely false.

The UK cannot 'pick and chose' what EU laws and regulations it wishes to follow.

If the UK does not wish to follow EU laws, ultimately, it has only one choice - Article 50.

This should be obvious without complex investigation: the UK's leading objection to EU participation was the lack of ability to control the migration of EU citizens across it's borders.

By your interpretation - the UK could have simply ignored the law - and put in controls for EU citizens?

What would have happened?

Would the 'EU police' have come in and 'arrested' the PM? Of course not - but the UK would ultimately be forced out of the Union given it breaks such a 'fundamental principle' of 'freedom of movement'.

The Gov. of Texas decided not to follow a Federal ruling, nobody would be arrested either - the issue would be fought in the political arena - and in the courts. And guess what? The US Federal government would ultimately win - and if Texas did want to 'implement ABC policy' - they'd have to secede.

It takes an exceeding amount of 'mental gymnastics' to not see the EU as a Federal Superstate - one that is gaining power every year as they legally move towards an 'ever closer union'.

'Ever closer union' is not an idea - it's legally part of the treaties, and is de-facto applied, as history quite obviously illustrate to us what direction things have been moving in for 70 years.

The United States was designed as a lose federation of states as well - and they envisioned a president having very limited power - and he did, for about 100 years. And look where we are now ...

>>The UK cannot 'pick and chose' what EU laws and regulations it wishes to follow.

It can, and it already does.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/opting_out.html

>>If the UK does not wish to follow EU laws, ultimately, it has only one choice - Article 50.

No, UK can literally just reappeal the act of parliment from 1972, without any referendum, and UK is fully out of EU immediately. Even the creator of the Article 50 said that he never thought anyone would use it.

"“I thought the circumstances in which it would be used, if ever, would be when there was a coup in a member state and the EU suspended that country’s membership,” he explained. “I thought that at that point the dictator in question might be so cross that he’d say ‘right, I’m off’ and it would be good to have a procedure under which he could leave.” He never envisioned that a British government might resort to it."

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/article-50-meant-dictato...

>>the UK's leading objection to EU participation was the lack of ability to control the migration of EU citizens across it's borders

I'd love to see the source on that, unless we consider Daily Mail to be giving out "leading objections". Most of the "leading objections" I hear about is the mythical "let's take back our laws" but when asked "which laws?" no one can name anything. Well, they can, but it's usually something like "EU doesn't allow us to fish in the north sea!" - well, yeah, and after brexit it still won't, because environmental protections are done through international agreements that will remain in force even without EU. Or the fact that UK has to listen to European Court of Human Rights - it still will, because it remains a member of Council of Europe, which again, has nothing to do with EU. Unless,of course, it decides to leave that, but not having to listen to ECHR is something that I would expect of Belarus, not a modern 1st world country.

>>By your interpretation - the UK could have simply ignored the law - and put in controls for EU citizens?

UK already brakes the EU law by requiring students/self-employed EU citizens to have private insurance during their stay in the UK in order to obtain permanent residence rights, despite the fact that it directly contradicts relevant EU regulations on that(namely - no country can require that EU citizen has private health insurance in order to stay in another EU country), it's just that no one has actually taken the Home Office to court over this. I would, but I don't have time or money to do this.

>>It takes an exceeding amount of 'mental gymnastics' to not see the EU as a Federal Superstate - one that is gaining power every year as they legally move towards an 'ever closer union'.

1) I never said that it wasn't.

2) You are saying it as if it's a bad thing. I'd love to have "United States of Europe", with no borders and one federal government. But that is currently not the case, and each country can still rule as they want - obviously that can mean they will be kicked out of the club, but it's the same as marriage - if you cheat on your wife, she will probably want divorce.

The EU can do what they want, including jumping up and down and yelling 'unconstitutional'. Any devolvement to Europe can be removed, just like the Queen could be - by acts of Parliament.

How could the Queen be practically removed by Parliament? Doesn't the act need royal assent, so she wouldn't go unless she wanted to?

Due to acts of Parliament I disagree with morally I've lost hope in the democratic system of this country.

Royal assent is today nothing more than an allowed tradition. If the people want her gone, there is nothing she or anyone else can do about it. Parliament is sovereign. However, say Parliament did do that between elections outside of the will of the vast majority of the people, then there would surely be an uprising. The will of the people are the final arbiters of the collective actions of their representatives in Parliament.

> "Due to acts of Parliament I disagree with morally I've lost hope in the democratic system of this country"

Democracy doesn't mean you get what you want, or that you can do whatever you want. It means accepting the will of the majority. Your right is to have your say at the next election. Why have you lost hope?

The actual act of Royal Assent might be considered tradition... but that doesn't mean there hasn't been significant influence before the Act gets as far as being inked.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jan/14/secret-papers-roy...

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