Show HN: Arrived – Stack Overflow for US Immigration | Hacker News Reader

Show HN: Arrived – Stack Overflow for US Immigration

play.google.com

244 pointswjmclaugh82 comments

I get the analogy, but it's a bit confusing since there sort of is a Stack Overflow for US immigration:

http://expatriates.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/usa+im...

This seems more like a knowledge base for US Immigration (particular since it doesn't look like you can post your own questions).

StackExchange is the reddit of Q and A. You can find just about anything, and even start a new one if you find it's missing. The important part is answer percentages, quality of answers and the behaviour of people. StackExchange websites generally excel at that.

Stack Exchange has had over 100,000+ communities started in some form, but there are only 162 that made it and still exist, so while it's true they're very good at doing Q&A for some topics, they've failed at the majority of them.

Where did you get the 100,000+ number from? I don't think there were more than a few dozen sites that were created in the Stack Exchange Area 51 process that were closed down. If you count Stack Exchange 1.0 sites when they licensed the software to other communities, there are probably a few hundred more. But I don't see how you could arrive at 100,000.

Proposal IDs started at 1 and if you sort the list by "most recent" and look at the ID, it's over 100k:

https://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/106513/parliament...

The ID you're looking at isn't just for proposals, it's used for every post on the A51 site. So this number doesn't mean there were 100,000 proposals.

And most proposals are seriously terrible and never attract more than a handful of users. Even the real number of proposals on A51 wouldn't mean all that much.

Example URL:

https://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/106513/parliament...

What other IDs/posts besides proposals are under "area51.stackexchange.com/proposals"?

Try this link instead:

https://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/106514

If you change the proposal # to 106514, it instead redirects to your link with 106514 as the question instead:

https://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/106513/parliament...

So that ID is used for both proposals and questions within area51.

You're right, for example ID 7 is a question, linked to proposal ID 4 - and you can't even iterate over the IDs to get a count, since it appears they delete the questions with the proposals, but list the deleted URL as a proposal.

Example of a deleted URL:

https://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/3

You can search for "closed:1" in the search box and that apparently lists all the closed proposals. That search returns 59 proposals that were suggested then closed.

However there seems to be two types of "Closed". I'd also search for just "closed" and in the results there are proposals with a grey box and the word "Closed" which aren't in the "closed:1" results. There's eleven of those. So over time it appears there's been 70 or so proposals suggested that never made it to beta launch.

There may be more that age, eventually fall off the front end and are "deleted" and possibly not visible to low rep users, much in the same way the rest of the sites work, i.e. you need at least 10k to be able to see deleted posts [0]. I've only got 1350 rep in Area51 so there may be very old deleted proposals I can't see.

[0]: http://stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/moderator-tools

10k is the rep SO requires to access mid tool, the rep required per SE varies based on the reps of the users with the most reps; SO has the highest rep users of all the SE sites. For example, 2k is the rep require on this SE:

https://3dprinting.stackexchange.com//help/privileges/modera...

Area51 doesn't appear to allow users to access the mod tools; might be wrong, but the URL pattern to view the rep required to access. If tools works on most SE sites, but it doesn't work on Area51.

> rep required per SE varies

I'd totally forgotten about that.

> Area51 doesn't appear to allow users to access the mod tools

From what I've read in meta.SE and discussion.area51, the current running codebase is kind of a fork of the original SO code (call it v1) so is quite old and isn't getting features backported to it (such as the mod tools):

http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/263486/remove-gravat...

There's this Q&A on meta.SE from 2015 about the future of Area51:

http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/263494/whats-going-o...

I haven't been able to find any recent mentions of what the future holds for Area51. I guess a follow up question to "What's going on with Area 51" might now hurt and could elicit new information.

Agree, it's a fork, and was never merged back with the main branch as it was updated.

Area 52 has been on hold for years: http://discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/questions/5089/next-...

Robert knows Area 51 isn't working, but given there's no other way to launch an SE users use it and SE as a result doesn't replace it because they're not interested in the long tail of active Q&A communities; last I checked, it takes them months, if not years to move a site from beta to live even after the community mets SE's requirements.

Basically, SE changed their past policies to avoid building Area 52 and SE has no idea what a working Area 52 would be.

If you want an SE, you've got to understand how Area 51 works, get all of your ducks in a row, then roll through it and the beta; otherwise your just asking for problems and leaving it up to SE to help, which is problematic.

To me, the more interesting question would be what are the numbers since launch for Area 51's launch funnel; that is from submitting a proposal, de-duplicating it, (etc), site leaves beta.

If you're interested in this, post a question on Meta Stack Exchange; I can pull numbers if you have a concrete idea of you want data for.

Thanks for the offer Shog, stopped using SE/A51 years ago and as is, already have a pretty strong opinion of A51.

My suggestion/request would be to just have SE post a request request for proposal to replace A51 on the main SE blog, since SE has had years to do so, has not, and positive the community would find a better solution.

There's a longer answer here than I have time to compose, but the summary is simply that we long ago abandoned the idea that A Big Rewrite was a good idea. Instead, we've been making numerous small tweaks to how Area51 operates, adjusting based on outcome, for roughly the past 4 years.

As such, the core philosophy (and bulk of the code) behind it is still more or less the same, but how proposals actually behave has changed dramatically.

We've also made significant changes to the lifecycle of sites after they're created, which you can find discussed on Meta Stack Exchange:

- https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/260754/feedback-req...

- http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/283663/its-been-a-ye...

Yes, aware of the changes, though to me, A51 is flawed from onboarding proposals to launching a final site.

All and all, this was one of many reasons I left, the largest being that communities in my opinion should be based around tags, not verticals; tags are in fact in my opinion how SO is run.

Again, thanks, and good luck!

> they've failed at the majority of them.

That's not SE's failure. SE has a fairly rigorous filtering process for judging whether a Q&A community is likely to survive.

Filtering out hundreds, if not thousands, of community ideas that will never get off the ground isn't failure on their part, it's the failure of these communities to reach a critical mass to be successful.

Once a Q&A idea makes it past "Area51"[0] and enters beta, which is still no guarantee of graduating to a fully launched and themed site, the SE team do actively nurture these communities to try and make them successful.

[0]: http://area51.stackexchange.com/

there was a short amount of time where anyone could create their own Stack Exchange site, but they ended up cancelling that scheme and carefully selected ones to be created now via Area51

https://stackoverflow.blog/2010/04/changes-to-stack-exchange...

It's a Stack Exchange site; Stack Overflow was the first Stack Exchange site. Here's a list of all the sites:

http://stackexchange.com/sites

Yes, I'm aware of the relationship, I just didn't think it was necessary to go into detail about it. The point is, the tag line is confusing since there is something else it could be referring to.

So users can submit questions that our team researches and adds to the knowledge bank. In addition, we have writers that contribute content to the newsfeed based on common questions we receive. So consider it an case-by-case, moderated Stack Overflow. Given the privacy considerations, we wanted to keep any questions anonymous.

> our team researches

Are good immigration lawyers doing the research? Do you want to handing out information? If your information turns out to be wrong, the consequences could be very serious.

> So users can submit...

OT, but I'm wondering why the choice to start this sentence with "So", particularly when it wasn't a "why" question?

There's also http://travel.stackexchange.com/ for visiting the USA.

I was misled too; though that would be "The StackExchange for US immigration"

Stack Overflow might not be the best comparison; it doesn't look like this app lets a user post questions or indeed interact with a community of any kind. It's more of a consolidation of resources designed to help immigrants.

That being said, this does look potentially useful.

A couple questions: who's curating the newsfeed? Where does the data in the FAQ section come from?

Agreed. Does not say anything about being able to post or being able to interact. I wonder what the add situation is like on that app. Can't decide if someone wants to help get info out or if they are capitalizing on the current situation

So we invite users to email us so we can anonymize, research, and vet each question. We also allow users and partners to contribute to our blog.

(Also we launched back in July.)

The newsfeed is curated from our blog via RSS (www.arrived.us/blog). The data in FAQ comes from expert interviews, NGO pamphlets, government sites, immigrant suggestions, and tips from the consular officials.

Why is this (apparently) just an app? I'd much rather have a mobile web site that I can read on any of my devices and not have to install an app on my phone to use it.

If StackOverflow were only available as an app, it'd be much much less useful.

For the majority of Hispanic immigrants, smartphones are their only computing device. I'm a believer than an app always outdoes a "mobile-friendly" site. Also an app lets you require a user to sign a ToS once after installation without requiring accounts. For a website it's not as seamless.

But if all you're doing is reading the feed on this app, then why do you need to require accounts or ToS?

StackOverflow doesn't require accounts to read posts (unlike some similar sites...).

To protect ourselves. While we do not offer legal advice per se, we do explain how removal proceedings, visa processes, and other sensitive topics work . Given how quickly immigration policy changes, the ToS allows us to say that info is provided as-is.

You can have that without anyone having to sign anything.

>I'm a believer than an app always outdoes a "mobile-friendly" site.

I disagree. Downloading and installing a binary blob in order to then download some text is a worse UX for me.

>Also an app lets you require a user to sign a ToS once after installation without requiring accounts.

A cookie would solve this problem.

I suspect the real reason people keep pushing apps is they are much more monetizable rather than taking the user into account.

> I suspect the real reason people keep pushing apps is they are much more monetizable rather than taking the user into account.

Exactly. With an app you get full control over the users experience. No adblockers, no tracker disabling extensions (e.g., Privacy Badger), none of the benefits of a simple website. What about immigrants who can't afford a smartphone and use a computer at a public library?

If you want to be seen as the StackOverflow of immigration, providing an Android/IOS-only experience instead of simply requiring a modern web browser is either short sighted or suspicious — why do you need people to install your software?

> Also an app lets you require a user to sign a ToS once after installation without requiring accounts. For a website it's not as seamless.

Huh? I don't think I've ever visited a purely informational website (like this one apparently is) that required me to sign a ToS just to view it. You just click the link, read whatever information you came for, and leave when you're done. That's far more "seamless" than having to install an app before you can do anything.

I think the point is that they want to get users to sign the TOS. Probably for liability reasons due to the legal & sensitive nature of the information.

Exactly. Plus the constantly shifting landscape of immigration itself. Relevant info one day is stale the next.

Exactly why a website makes more sense. You get the latest version by just reloading the page.

You can do the same with an app, though.

I meant without downloading a 40 MB binary upfront.

Sure, but not everyone wants to install an app for every site they visit; installation is about as non seamless as it gets!

Plus, the TOS bullshit is no excuse. Just require registration to post.

We don't want a database of undocumented immigrant emails, but agreed we will figure out a way to create a web portal as well.

> I'm a believer than an app always outdoes a "mobile-friendly" site.

On the other hand, the website is available on all platforms. An app is typically only available on whatever platform(s) the creator thinks is/are most valuable.

How do you do SEO without a web site?

visit us at www.arrived.us

Only giving this very minor and not-useful feedback because you say "The Stack Overflow" for and I make Stack Overflow's mobile apps:

This app is a good idea. It'd look a lot more professional and believable if it had some minor changes like "Don't have the selected tab's text color be black on navy blue", or "give your list items consistent margin and padding".

Both of these minor suggestions, and more, are also listed in the Material Design guidelines: https://developer.android.com/design/index.html

Great points! We are constantly improving the UI since it's our first foray into Android.

What was the motivation for making this and Android app?

Since this is just a source of information, I'm not sure I see why you'd want to limit it to a platform-specific client.

We launched back in July because we felt tech could scale the great resources and tips shared in guides, forums, and in-person visits to NGOs. Given we are a team primarily of immigrants, we also wanted to combat the xenophobia in this country.

iOS is coming soon! Android headsets are cheaper and have a higher market share, and are therefore are more likely to be used by undocumented immigrants.

I think hughes's point was why isn't this just a website? (Which would work on all platforms, including iOS and desktop PCs, and would be searchable through Google.)

Maybe because of connectivity? Not everyone has a data plan when they arrive to the country.

Offline-capable websites are a thing. Plus you still need a connection to download the app initially anyway.

We want users to peruse the knowledge bank offline due to the cost of data and the potential that a detained or soon-to-be-detained immigrant may not have an internet connection.

Right, which is why I mentioned that it's entirely possible to make a website which can be used offline. You might want to have a look at Service Workers. https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/getting-start...

Great suggestion. We'll check it out.

That makes sense to me! Thanks for the response.

Users are not generally aware of this, whereas they may have more confidence in the possibility of an app working offline.

The only android app I worked on that was more popular on android than iOS was predominantly used by people that identify as Hispanic as well as Black Women living in America.

It was a pregnancy information app. Extrapolate whatever you want.

I found this community very helpful for navigating US immigration for my non-American wife:

http://www.visajourney.com/

Likewise. Visa journeys was the definitive source when I went through the process about 10 years ago.

It's a great site to be sure! But we have translated our content to Spanish (and soon ten other languages).

Seconded. Having access to a huge community of people who were a little further along in the visa issue process made navigating it much, much easier. Little stuff like "oh, they're now requiring 2 passport photos instead of 1 and the consular website hasn't been updated everywhere yet" saved a ton of pain.

It was also really nice to see almost in real time how long processing was taking, because you could see when people ahead of you got their interviews scheduled and guess how long you had left.

http://candleforlove.com/forums/ is also very good. Those two sites together have enough information for a person to educate themselves enough in the visa process to do all the work themselves. For marriage and fiancee visas, if the couple is not high risk (previous denials or red flags like short courtship of a high age difference couple) completing the paperwork yourself can be very straight forward.

I did the paperwork for my wife to get her a k1 visa. Cost only a few thousand dollars in filing fees an a good amount of time preparing all the documents. It is a little frustrating that you put so much effort into the documents then they are simply looked at a bit and stamped. My wife reported that during her interview the officer looked at the papers we put together for a minute. Said, looks good and stamped them. 5 minutes total, while people before her had much more lengthy discussions.

This. Stack exchange is kind of like the visajourney.com for tech nerds. :-)

As an immigrant I like the idea of having this information on my phone, especially during border crossings.

- under Learn > Emergency I would love to see a section on "What should I do/say if I'm detained at a border crossing"

- the See section responds slowly then crashes on my device (Nexus 5X), possibly because I denied the Location permission and it showed the entire map

- I'm not sure if denying the Location permission removed information from the Learn section

- You've marketed it at the Stack Overflow for US immigration, but there doesn't seem to be a way to ask questions or provide answers to others. Is this coming soon or not planned?

1) We'll add that in the next release. Thanks. 2) That's entirely likely. I realize the location part is sensitive, but we want to show you immediately the closest NGOs and sanctuary cities. 3) No, it doesn't. 4) We accept submissions via email, Twitter, and FB that we then research and vet with experts. We're planning an anonymous forum as well in the future.

As far as I know, phones are forbidden between 20 minutes before landing and clearing customs.

If you run into troubles while going through BC, you are not allowed to check your phone. Better study/prepare your answers before :)

We have a section on physical/digital security when crossing through high-risk borders in Umbrella App (our stuff is open source and Creative Commons so people should feel free to reuse it):

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.secfirst.u...

https://www.secfirst.org

- You should have made a website.

- The application doesn't look good.

Or just come to Vancouver and take a 30~50% pay cut because "You are living in the best place on earth"™

"What do I do when they take this phone away from me before I've had a chance to open this app?"

Hey. Australia is the best place on Earth.

I noticed it asked for few permissions. I'm curious though, what do you need location for?

We focus map that has every sanctuary city/immigration NGO and law clinic in the country on your approximate location.

SO is a pretty brutal place from a question experience pov.

The stakes are really high for immigrants. I cannot imagine a worse model unless you have actual lawyers answering questions.

There's nothing wrong with a site that says "we can answer typical questions about A, B, and C, but we can't answer questions that require legal advice, so please don't ask those or we'll close them". That's how they handle it at the Workplace SE site.

Precisely.

The french translation of the application description is really bad. You should let it in plain english until you have a decent translation.

Should have been called Arrival

Reply on news.ycombinator.com