Comment by TamDenholm | Hacker News Reader

Comment by TamDenholm | Hacker News Reader

I do contract work a lot in the UK through recruitment agencies. I very often provide feedback like this, especially when i'm asked to opt-out of the agency regulations. I never opt out, every single time i get the a response along the lines of "In my 20+ years of recruiting we've never had any problems with the contractor not opting out of the agency regulations, you're the first person to ever do that. Can i ask why you want to opt-in?"

My response is always something like "Thank you for acknowledging my contribution to the innovation to the recruitment industry, i'm very proud to be a pioneer in this field, being first is a great honour. One thing to note, i'm not opting in, i'm refusing to opt out, i dont need to opt-in to the law. I've chosen to do this because theres no reason to and the law specifically protects me from you forcing me to do so. Also, since your client has already decided to hire me, even if i was to opt out, it wouldnt be recognised in court as the opt out paperwork must be signed before i ever meet the client."

For this point on the agency regulations, i do it primarily just to make the recruiters work for their exorbitant markup on my day rate. However i do also question source code and copyright clauses like the author did, almost always, i'm looked at with dumbfoundment that i even bothered to read the contract.

If anyone wants to know the regulations i'm referring to, heres a link: http://www.contractoruk.com/agencies/5158.html

I don't think I ever signed an agency contract without heavily adjusting some clauses.

I would simply state I can't sign as is. The only times I got pushback (rare) an annotated letter from accountant or PCG (now IPSE I think) contract review and the agency buckled. I also demanded proof that the agency-client contract matched on IR35 terms. Was never once caught by it.

Does the agent want to lose commission? Does the agency want me telling the client direct why I've changed my acceptance?

I realise regulation and the market has changed some since I last contracted, hmm, 8 or 9 years ago. Still can't imagine signing any agency contract as-is, they were always horribly one-sided affairs.

This. In a business law class my instructor told me you should never sign a contract you are offered. Change it however you like and send it back as an offer. Or if you are being asked to sign something on paper mark it up with your pen, initial each change, and THEN sign it. If they don't like it they don't have to sign it.

Or better yet, if they send it to you electronically, change it however you like, sign it and send it back. If they don't read it it's kind of their problem.

I once got out of a compete clause because the recruiter told me that I should go to the fedex store, pick up this contract, sign it immediately and fedex it back. I asked about having time to read it and he told me not to bother. So I didn't.

When I was hired away by a competitor and he was yelling at me on the phone I reminded him of this. It helped that my new employer had indemnified me and was willing to pay the court costs to fight it for me.

> Or better yet, if they send it to you electronically, change it however you like, sign it and send it back. If they don't read it it's kind of their problem.

It's not really "their problem". The contract can be void because of mistake: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistake_(contract_law)

Voiding contracts in these circumstances is usually exactly what the (former) employee wants. Even if there's outstanding payment, voiding the contract doesn't negate the need for payment on at least a quantum meruit basis for work already done.

When I was a freelancer changing the contract was a good way to gauge the level of respect you are receiving. If they say "take it or leave it" or "don't worry about it. It's in the contract but never causes problems" or "this is policy" the client doesn't respect you as a business partner and you will get problems later on. A good client will engage in discussion as long as your changes are not frivolous.

Indeed, I made some changes to a freelance contract once, and the business owner was extremely understanding.

It ended up being the best freelance experience I've had and I would recommend working for them with no hesitation.

OTOH, I've signed "take it or leave it" contracts, and it ended up being a soul-sucking corporate drone kind of affair.

My question is: Does this ever actually result in them amending the contract? If not, do you then refuse to sign (as I suppose OP did in the gigster case)? If so, what happens if you discover that everyone's contracts are similarly problematic?

Well given that the law specifically prohibits them from rescinding an offer if i dont want to opt out i gently remind them that if they try to pull any shit. Sometimes they'll just make the amend in the contract and that'll be the end of it, sometimes they want a reference for every single place i've worked at in the last 3 years (as a contractor thats probably about 20+ places), to which i tell them they'll get the standard 2 references and thats it, they also want verifications of every qualification i have, since i dont have a single qualification, only 12 years industry experience working for top names in the industry, that kinda solves itself.

Basically i dont stand for their shit, but i'm in a very privileged position of never once been desperate to accept a position, its always been very easy for me to find work. So if i need to walk away, i will. Its those who dont have this option and will agree to any terms put in front of them i feel sorry for.

I never worked through an agency. But when I was freelancing, yes. I refused to sign a bunch. For others I found the only way for people to listen was to have a lawyer involved.

Once my lawyer and their lawyer got to the point they talked directly, contract modifications and negotiation proceeded at a brisk pace.

But many companies were offended I didn't just blindly sign the contract. Even when they clearly contained clauses that were problematic.

I was also routinely handed contracts with clauses that would have forced me to violate other contracts if I signed both. For instance, one contract would require me to disclose anyone else I worked with over a 24 month period while another contract would prevent me from disclosing anything about an engagement. (I usually signed neither.)

Thankfully my main client's contract was eminently sensible, so I mostly worked with one amazing group of engineers for awhile.

Eventually some of the annoyances of freelancing made me come around to exploring a full time position. So I am in one of those now and enjoy it actually quite a bit.

What are your reasons for declining to opt-out, out of interest?

I looked into this law (the actual wording of the law itself even) and found it to be mostly harmless. I also came across the wording which nullifies the entire regulation from being enforced if you opt-out after an introduction, which happens in 99% of cases, so I wasn't too worried.

This is my thoughts exactly. I don't mind signing the opt out because it always follows an interview.

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