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Comment by ashark | Hacker News Reader

> 4. Dongles - This is another temporary problem until devices are all USB-C.

What I've learned from all this discussion about usb-c is that some people replace all their peripherals and secondary devices on a much more aggressive timescale than I do. For me dongles would likely be an annoying companion, with few or no usb-c devices ever plugging in to it, for the lifespan of this MPB if I bought one today.

My next one in 3-5 years, that might be a different story. But for this one, now? All-usb-c is a turn-off, as it'll be years before that's a "feature" that makes me say anything other than "oh, that's an unfortunate limitation".

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I also find this strange. My switch (Ethernet) is 10 years old. My DAC (SPDIF) is 7 years old. My monitor (DisplayPort) is 5 years old. My hard drives (USB Type-A) are 3-5 years old. My thumb drives (USB Type-A) are 2-3 years old. My phone (USB Type-A) is 2 years old.

None of them are USB-C and I don't plan on replacing any of them soon.

With the possible exception of external hard drives, USB-C doesn't offer any benefits over my existing interfaces.

It offers the huge benefit that with the right accessory you can connect all those things, including power, at once with just one cable.

Almost everything you list are things that would be stationary on your desk, so either you are buying the wrong machine if you don't plan on removing it from the desk, or you'll benefit from having all connected to a dock that can connect via 1 cable to your machine.

One of the benefits of getting more expensive tech peripherals, especially in the Mac world is that there is a ton of resale value.

If one upgrades their mac with every new release, it usually ends up being a 200-500 hit per year depending on market conditions. The more expensive peripherals usually will fetch a decent amount on ebay as well.

So for the average cost of around ~$30/mo, one can basically have the latest mac with the latest peripherals all the time.

Or one could upgrade every 5 years as well...

Riding the edge, does seem to work with some products. But it is also a game of prediction. My Model M was a great investment, but my modems went obsolete in months. Now my DSL modem is 8 years old, and still using the model m. Professional style tools seem to fair the best.

How many of those do you use while traveling?

The only port I find myself missing so far is HDMI. Having to carry a USB-C to HDMI adapter (actually multiple since compatibility is an unmitigated disaster) is quite annoying. I rarely use thumbdrives, but carrying a USB-C<->female A adapter isn't a big deal since it's so rare and I can just toss it in my bag.

For a primarily desk-sitting laptop you're getting a docking station of some sort (monitor or actual) so you get all the above ports with it. I also don't upgrade components there very often either. I do admit this was annoying so far - as the release of the laptop far preceded any decent docks. Single-cable docking though is pretty neat, and a definite upgrade if minor.

Really it ended up being a USB-C to HDMI, female A, and ethernet that I need to toss in the bag. The latter two I expect to use a few times a year at most.

I don't get that, why wont you just use an adapter that has everything in one instead of 3 seperate ones? I use a Hooto Shuttle with USB, HDMI, Card reader and power in, thats all i need, ok it has no ethernet as i never use them but there are ones with ethernet inbuilt too.

I dont get all this so much dongle talk when you just need one good adapter.

Point of note: a lot of USB-C multi-port dongles that provide Ethernet don't support 1GbE. Quite a few of them cap out around 120Mbit/s.

I've asked our office admin to purchase the Juice Systems flat dongle with Ethernet, as that one handles gigabit, for anyone who gets the new Macbook.

Also, as far as I know, none of the all-in-one dongles, not even the normal adapter that Apple sells supports 4k/60Hz. Only 30.

Disclaimer: not affiliated, just a good product.

Yeah, I'm waiting on an Arc Hub, because it supposedly supports HDMI 2.0 and an extra USB-C port which could support 4K/60Hz.

Since I only have 2 ports on my non-Touch Bar model, I really wish someone just made a USB-C hub. All of the existing hubs have USB-A ports and one USB-C only for power pass through, but they can't handle the bandwidth required for certain things like 60Hz 4K. At least I have a gigabit USB 3.1 adapter that gets me ~930 Mbps on my local network.

Because I've yet to find one that works with every HDMI input I need to use. So I ended up having to carry around 3 different HDMI adapters.

So weight basically :)

You don't need to replace them, just get different cables, type-c is still USB and also happens to be thunderport so you get DisplayPort as well.

No need for a dongle for your DisplayPort monitor, just get a DP->USB-C cable, done, I'm running a 4k monitor at 60hz this way.

Same for your hard drive, it is probably micro-usb on the other side, just get a micro-USB to USB-C.

etc.. etc..

You don't need new stuff, just new cables, which is annoying but not anywhere near as bad. Protocol is the same, just a different shape.

So I should spend a load of money buying new cables, which do exactly the same as my existing ones, but also look the same as each other, so I can no longer tell them apart?

It's nice to know the protocols my devices use aren't redundant, but you won't find me rushing out to adopt USB Type-C cables.

It's more a case of now you don't need to replace thousands of dollars of equipment, but tens of dollars of cables.

Or buy something running Linux that is not Apple and don't bother with the mess?

Like what? The XPS 15 seems to be the leading alternative: https://blog.vrplumber.com/b/2016/12/14/review-dell-xps-15-9.... In the high DPI configuration in Linux it apparently gets just a few hours of battery life. And bad Q&A, such as coil whine is a recurring problem (including in the new XPS 15s). Why bother with that mess to avoid buying $50 of cables?

I still use a keyboard with a PS/2 connector (Hangs head in shame). It's an old (at least 10 years) Kensiko ergonomic one I rescued from a giveaway pile and have never been able to find a good enough replacement for.

Pretty sure they don't make USB Type C adapters for PS/2.

Just use two dongles at the same time. PS/2 to USB A, then USB A-to-C cable.

What I've learned is that people are really into outrage signaling. So much teeth gnashing from having to buy a $100 hub for a $2000 laptop. Mostly a way of signaling "I'm not like those other Mac users who just sit at Starbucks. I'm inconvenienced because I have lots of peripherals for doing real work."

I don't think that's true. I don't like the idea of buying a laptop that for some reason is super thin but then I have to carry around adapters. I would much prefer a lot of common adapters built into the device even if it's thicker or heavier. Make the MacBook Air have only USB-C and thin but the "Pro" should be more utilitarian and practical.

Do you go to a presentation assuming someone will have an HDMI cable handy to plug into the projector? If you do, you're a braver person than I. But I can carry a USB-C to HDMI cable just as easily as a HDMI to HDMI.

At some point, inconvenience to part of the user base has to be outweighed by convenience to everyone else. The new MBP fits a 15" screen into a form factor that is edging in on where 13-14" laptops were not too long ago. The new 13" is edging into where 12" laptops used to be. Given that lots of "pros" and "road warriors" suffer through 12-13" laptops for size/weight reasons, that's a pretty huge benefit that might easily justify the loss of ports for a big segment of the user base.

In my company all projectors have an HDMI cable already so there is no need to carry one. I just think if you need really small go for an Air. With my current MBP I can walk around without adapters and have reasonable confidence that i can deal with most unexpected peripherals like USB devices or HDMI screens. In my view they should have put in a USB-C port but also left at least some legacy ports. My MBP 13 has an SD card reader , screen connector and USB ports and is still pretty small so I don't buy the size argument.

> My MBP 13 has an SD card reader , screen connector and USB ports and is still pretty small so I don't buy the size argument.

Why'd you get a 13"? If the 15" was close to the same size/weight would you have gotten the 15"?

I think the new 15 is still quite a bit bigger than the older 13. In any case, if some more connectors would have made the new MBP slightly thicker or heavier I would have preferred that. If you want super super thin, buy an Air.

Or, it may be an actual PITA to spend even more money on an already expensive laptop for what's a downgrade: less features and the inconvenience of carrying dongles everywhere, for the "benefit" of a laptop that's half a milimetre thinner.

Except it's not "half a millimeter thinner." The new 15" is halfway in size between the old 13" and the old 15". It makes it that much more practical to move up from an Air to a Pro, or from a 13" Pro to a 15" Pro.

And then there are probably quite a few people like me who essentially have no peripheral.

I don't have many peripherals, but traveling frequently I've acquired the habit of not carrying extra USB chargers, but charging iPhone and Apple Watch via the laptop overnight. Can't do that on the "cheap" (non-touchbar) model (while also charging) without extra hub. Worse now with the AirPods.

Why you can't? It has two ports.

Also, nobody does that, stop making excuses.

err, well, I do do that. And it's not an excuse, it's a complaint. Finally, let us count together:

1 port to charge the computer,

1 port (with USB-C to lightning cable, $19) for the iPhone,

1 port (with USB-C to plain old USB dongle, $9) for the Apple Watch,

1 port (with USB-C to lightning cable, $19) for the AirPods

That makes 4 ports, and I have 2. Thus, hub it is.

I think his/her complaint about your complaint (uh oh. we broke it.) is that this would be the case for any USB config. If you had the same situation with current USB cables, you'd still need to get a hub so the problem isn't actually USB-C, just the number of devices you're using at the same time.

But but but the old MacBook Air had one MagSafe and two USB ports (and SD card and Thunderbolt), so it had strictly more ports, and I could charge it all at the same time (except now AirPods).

But yes, the problem is not USB-C per se, the problem is the small number of ports unless you pony up for the TouchPad model.

USB-C to lightning cable?

The thing is that you rarely won't need to replace the entire peripheral, but can easily replace just the chord. There are mini/micro-usb to usb-c chords out there already, and they will be cheaper in a year.

You only need to replace the cables, not the devices...

Shhh, they are the "enthusiasts", they know more than the "Apple sheep that buys Apple's computers"

It is really annoying if you have expensive gear, for instance professional audio interfaces.

You don't have to buy new devices, you just buy the connecting cable, done.

You don't have to "replace peripherals" in most cases. USB-C to USB2 and USB3 cables exist. Just buy a cable and enjoy not having to guess which way is up for the first time ever.

The only major pain point is really the monitor.

I think it's hugely ironic the 'U' in 'USB' stands for 'Universal'.

Guess they didn't mean it after all.

It's actually "universal" now, for the first time in history. You can run anything through it, including power and your 4/5K displays. It's far less "serial" than it used to be, though.

except there's already a bunch of different usb-c cables looking identical but being incompatible in subtle ways, including official Apple ones?

I've read about situations like this, and it's frustrating to think that something like this can occur.

I think it's reasonable to wonder how often this is actually in issue in practice. I don't have a new MBP (or any peripherals for that matter), so I can't speak to this directly.

Do you have a new MBP or know anyone personally who does? Have you or they had any issues with cable incompatibility?

This is just as true of any other cable. The Lightning cables you can buy at the corner store look like regular ones, but they don't have data lines, and they won't charge at full voltage. Cables are just awful. Or, one might say, knock-off cables are awful, and you shouldn't let them polute your junk drawer lest you never sort them back out.

you're missing the

> including official Apple ones

part here. If Apple had planned it better, all their USB-C cables (starting with the Macbook One) could do all the functions they need for any Apple product going forward. But even today, if you walk to an Apple store and buy a bunch of USB-C Apple products, you'll probably have to color code them yourself to not mix them up, because it won't work if you do. All Apple is helping here is saying "if you have a cable with an intsy tiny serial number print starting with X, use it only for Y". Gee thanks, that sure is a great ecosystem you got going here Apple.

There's a reason why Apple 1997 - 2007 pushed interoperable standards hard (examples: USB-A, 802.11B and then G, Firewire, mini-DP). None of these had connectors that you could confuse, including when switching between different Firewire standards, and these buses did fairly complex things as well. They even had a powerbook generation with two different Firewire ports so people don't get left hanging with their old Firewire devices. That's all under Steve Jobs and Jony Ive, just Ive not being the one in charge of doing these decisions.

As I understand it, there's a pretty significant tradeoff involved. If you want a USB-C cable that does everything, you're going to pay a lot more and get something that's much thicker than you need to, say, charge an iPhone.

So yes, ideally all Apple cables would do everything imaginable, but I understand why they didn't choose to do that.

But that's the thing, they don't even use it to charge iPhones, and your argument would be one for them to keep lightning, which seems like a fine connector to me. But Apple has been pushing USB-C on personal computers, and there IMO they should just have waited and then jumped on the first solution that does everything.

I'm not sure, but I would argue having a charging cable with no data pins is the best thing you can do for security (for an unassuming user) so people can just charge of random USB ports without worrying about potential exploits.

There's industry-wide confusion related to the USB-C plug

USB-C != USB 3.1

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/197145-reversible-usb-...

USB-C != Thunderbolt 3

http://blog.fosketts.net/2016/10/29/total-nightmare-usb-c-th...

The extremetech article really frustrates me. So, can I plug in a USB 3.0 device with USB-C connector to a USB-C Macbook Pro (that has USB 3.1)? What about the Macbook One?

sigh

> It's actually "universal" now, for the first time in history. You can run anything through it, including power and your 4/5K displays.

Well, anything but USB 1-3! :face-with-tears-of-pain:

Also, all the ports may look the same, even fit the same port, but they're not the same, which is a terrible user experience.

All in all, I can say I understand nothing about usb-c with confidence except I don't have any usb cables to stick in the ports and nowhere to stick the usb cables I do have.

> Also, all the ports may look the same, even fit the same port, but they're not the same, which is a terrible user experience.

Thats true of some laptops, but the new macbook pros allow any connection (power/display/whataver) to any of the usb-c ports. When I'm lying in bed I can now roll over and just swap which side of the laptop the power cable connects to.

(Well apparently the ports on one side of the machine are a bit faster, but I don't know of any USB devices which can take advantage of even the slower speed USB 3.1 provides. I certainly don't own any.)

It's still universal, that's why you can get a USB A to USB C cable that doesn't need any kind of chip in it.

You're crazy if you think that 4-conductor rectangular non-reversible connector was going to be the end-all be-all for USB forever. We had to upgrade eventually. Be thankful that this change is being relatively swift and reasonably future-proof. USB C should be good for quite a few more years.

If it's an upgrade, why are people still calling it "USB"? This isn't semver; people don't ask what version of the cable you have. I still don't understand the difference between USB-1 and USB-2 except I shouldn't charge over USB-1. I don't own any USB-3 peripherals, let alone USB-C.

This is going to haunt technical support for literally decades.

I just told you why: it's still universal.

USBC is no less Universal than micro USB.

> why are people still calling it "USB"?

Because you can still run the USB 1.0, 1.1, 2.0, and 3.0 protocols over it

This may be true (and it's an important saving grace), but it's the ports and cables people interact with, NOT the protocol.

I wish they had simply called it "ngSB" or something like that. People understand the need for converters; it's the branding that's terrible.

Counterpoint: People call the USB ports on phones (micro/mini) USB, despite not being compatible with the full sized port.

Before USB Type C there were already at least four very common USB connectors I can think of off the top of my head. "Universal" was never intended to indicate that only one connector exists.

The side with the USB logo is always up. At least on all devices I ever used.

Cables? Yes, except where the logo is on both sides. Sockets? Seems to depend entirely on what's convenient for the hardware/PCB layout. From the last 48h: one of my chargers, my car, and two different model monitors all have "upside down" USB sockets...

> up

You realize that USB ports aren't always "up & down". Sometimes they're sideways. Sometimes they're reversed.

As someone with a USB C phone who is trying to convert all my devices to it: reversibility is far from a necessity, I did just fine for years with USB B on my phones, but it is extremely nice to not have to even think about direction. And now, it is noticeably annoying when I have to use MicroUSB.

I have at least one micro USB cable where the logo is on the bottom.

I have cables with two logos, neither of which is the USB one.

That seems worse than just buying dongles, because nothing else I'll want to plug anything into is USB-c. The cables would still be bound to the MacBook for all use cases.

Give it a year or two, and practically every computing device that had some form of USB before, will have at least some, if not majority or all USB-C.

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