Researchers use music and LSD to understand how we attribute meaning | Hacker News Reader

Researchers use music and LSD to understand how we attribute meaning

researchgate.net

131 pointsemersonrsantos24 comments

Psychedelics are an investigators dream. They are safe in reasonable contexts and usage, while producing profound changes in consciousness that can be readily studied. All in the relatively well-understood context of neurotransmitters and receptor regulation.

Entire fields are based on chemicals that have specific physiological effects. When combined with genetic work, great progress can be made. And here we have a whole suite of compounds with both widely different and subtly different effects.

The prohibition of their use in research has hamstrung research in this area for decades.

one goal of such research could be stronger psychedelics (eg mk ultra), so there's a good reason for regulation.

All areas of brain research are vital to have a complete understanding of humanity. The brain is clearly a major part of how we function.

But the complete understanding isn't essential. Sure, surgens may be vital, doesn't mean everyone may cut up people.

>We demonstrate that the psychedelic effects of LSD can be fully blocked with the selective serotonin 2A receptor ketanserin.

So taking a dose of ketanserin would make you stop tripping immediately?

People have used atypical antipsychotics for years to abort bad trips (especially effective is Seroquel because it also has a sedatory effect). It definitely works, but most people would take an oral form which is not immediate (30-60 minutes depending on the drug). Presumably an injection would be immediate or almost immediate.

Science is so funny sometimes. You could probably have a successful career by reading erowid and "discovering" things about drugs.

Erowid or PiHKAL :)

Maybe machine learning techniques could correlate chemical drug composition with experiences described on erowid and similar databases to provide new insights into brain chemistry? It would presumably take some effort to automate distinguishing important data (exact substance, dosage taken, emotions, physical reactions, euphoria, paranoia...) from random hallucinatory tails.

It should be "the [..] receptor-antagonist ketanserin" (can't take a dose of a receptor). And the effect isn't complete if I understand it correctly. But higher doses or a more potent antagonist could block the psychedelic effects completely, yes.

I'm not quite sure if LSD has non-psychedelic effects that are mediated through other mechanisms (such as other serotonin receptors, or maybe the dopaminergic system). From what I seem to remember (from that neurology lecture, mind you (where I was high)), LSD has some cardiovascular effects – basically everything you may experience from a large dose of caffein: rapid heartbeat, sweating, nervousness.

LSD has a very wide receptor binding profile, see Table 8 of this paper: http://www.maps.org/research-archive/w3pb/2008/2008_Passie_2...

It also does bind to dopamine receptors, which is why it's more stimulating than other psychedelics.

It's also worth looking into the "research chemical" 25I-NBOMe[1] -- it's "a highly potent full agonist for the human 5-HT2A receptor" and has similar effects to LSD. It could be a useful tool in further understanding the role of this specific receptor in the human brain. Perhaps its effects could be seen as a subset of LSD's?

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25I-NBOMe

I think that's more or less the idea, and I also think the article accidentally a word- I imagine that should say selective serotonin 2A receptor antagonist ketanserin. Trazodone is said to do this too.

Ketanserin was only administered 60 min before the LSD. This study did not test for subjective effects with order of brain uptake for either drug.

Somewhat related I can anecdotally confirm that small doses of LSD (20-30ug) puts you in a high state of focus.

It's hard to get the measurement right. Halfway through my productive morning (probably at my peak) I had to take a long break because I kept feeling 'earthquakes' and had to walk it off.

I have also experimented with small, sub-recreational doses of LSD for the same purpose. Just another point on a graph, I also had success with this during work on my side projects.

Interesting that they study the "meaningfulness" of previously meaningless music - in a way I see a relationship to reinforcement learning, namely retroactively assigning meaning to recorded but undiscovered information from the environment.

"Information is a difference which makes a difference!"

What's interesting about the study is that they're not looking at whether LSD actually helps to unlock deeper meaning, but rather they're looking at whether LSD increases the subjective feeling of meaning having been unlocked. I think it would be even more interesting to see how the former correlates with the latter, both with and without LSD.

Precisely; I feel there may be some insight as to why SSRIs appear to reduce the sense of entropy pervasive in anxiety and depression. Or from a more Slate star codex perspective, why antidepressants sort of seem to do more than they seem to do.

Very glad to see references to Bateson here. To paraphrase some other cybernetician[s]:

"Order and chaos are not a properties of things, but relations of an observer to something observed - the ability for an observer to distinguish or specify pattern."

This is the smartest path of science, using government funds to buy drugs and music. I think the search for meaning would be increased with adding easy going, sparsely dressed, party minded, but well paid girls.

I think there's a political party for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8vC0h7bzQk

While I find your argument overly snarky I have to agree with the conclusion.

Where do I volunteer?

My friends, by all means experiment with LSD, but explore the entire range, our lives are so short, why not try to push our potential? The cognitive lottery was decided for us, if we have reason to believe some <substance> is safe, then well, let's go hard.

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