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Comment by Eric_WVGG | Hacker News Reader

There's a similar problem with popcorn. Showing my age card here, but back in the 1970's popcorn actually tasted like corn, which seems to be a difficult concept to explain to anyone under 40. It all went south around the same time that microwave popcorn became popular.

People always ask if I don't like tomatoes when I eat around them in salads or remove from burgers. Nope, I love tomatoes, that's why I don't eat flavorless, unseasonal ones.

pro tip: Use canned tomatoes instead of fresh whenever out of season; canners use varieties that have not been ruined for shipping, and seal at the peak of freshness.

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I wish there was a brand dedicated to optimizing for taste of fruits and vegetables vs appearance. And by taste I don't mean sweetness. I'd actually optimize for less sweet fruits.

Shop local and "real" fresh, like picked that day.

"Local" is grown from the same exact seeds as the large farms most of the time. Because of market forces local farms actually have higher overheads due to the laws of scale.

You might have to pay double-triple for the variety you like.

> "Local" is grown from the same exact seeds ...

Yes, but the process is different, as it optimizes the quality at the time of picking, rather than after several days spent in a container.

One of the interesting areas our startup http://8-food.com/ hopes to explore is allowing for the effective distribution of short-run/seasonal/non-standard produce which would normally be unavailable due to conventional distribution chains / market forces. We are able to look at this seriously because of our emphasis on consumer choice, custom products, and dynamic pricing... whereas established chain restaurants seek reliable perennial large volume suppliers and supply-chains first (usually to support a year-round stable, unchanging, generic product), and optimizations for marketing (color, taste, etc.) a distant second.

Give the MJ industry a few years to spearhead experimentation with highly controlled farming techniques, then watch the tech scope out to custom strains of all sorts of different consumable plants as it comes down in price and people with related expertise gradually spread out as well.

> I wish there was a brand dedicated to optimizing for taste ... vs appearance

It will happen when enough people will be ready to choose tasteful vs "cheap & looking good".

Pro tip: never eat canned goods. The coating inside of them is loaded with endocrine disruptors.

Edit: nice to see downvotes without any discourse. Keep it up HN!

https://www.niehs.nih.gov/health/topics/agents/endocrine/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2726844/

I love the edit.

Do you have anything showing that these are used in canned foods?

... are you seriously too lazy to do ctrl+t->'canned food endocrine disruptors'->enter ?

And don't use the argument that the onus is on me for giving more links. If googling it is too much effort for you, how can you expect me to do it for you..?

I only asked because you listed research listing the problems with endocrine disruptors, but nothing showing they were used in cans.

Sure. Here you go.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/29/health/canned-foods-bpa-risk/

Those are good links, and you shouldn't be downvoted.

That being said, it's a little more complex than that. From http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/29/health/canned-foods-bpa-risk/ :

>Now, a study published in the journal Environmental Research on Wednesday not only reveals that consuming canned foods can expose our bodies to BPA, it pinpoints the worst offenders. The study suggests that canned soups and pasta can expose consumers to higher concentrations of BPA than canned vegetables and fruit -- and although those foods are tied to BPA concentrations, canned beverages, meat and fish are not.

For me personally I still wouldn't risk it with meat or fish. What if the brand you actually eat wasn't researched and actually does contain BPA (or a similarly unhealthy replacement) and thus you ingest it? Better safe then sorry..

Besides that, its pretty easy for me buy either fresh or glass-stored food at the supermarket, both of which are safe (but that easy access could be just because I live in Europe and its more usual to cook at home here).

It's pretty easy here in California, as we have a ton of agriculture in-state.

There are several states where the fruit n' veg selection is pretty sparse in the winter, though.

There are several companies that make it a point to use BPA-free cans.

http://www.treehugger.com/green-food/7-companies-you-can-tru...

Wild Planet's tuna, in particular, is really, really good. If you like fish, you should give it a try, if you can find it.

Reasons for downvoting -

>nice to see downvotes...

HN asks people not to complain about downvoting. It karma whoring.

> Pro tip:

If you are a professional please state how? Else this is just more of the Reddits we are trying to escape.

> The coating inside of them is loaded with

Your linked article do not show it's 'Loaded with'

> without any discourse.

Seems to be a fair amount of it? Once again Reddit style making out like you're the under dog.

And the obvious

Most experts currently state there are no issues with BPA's in our diets in foods like cans, so more than one sentence is needed for this to be a constructive start to the conversation that opposes medical advice.

There's a strange thing about canned tomatoes in North America: manufacturers seem to always put a firming agent (calcium chloride) which makes canned tomatoes supernaturally firm. But imported European canned tomatoes are fine.

I don't have the reference at hand, but I read a paper a few months ago that explained this. You prefer flavors you grew up with. Flavors change, so as you get older, you think flavors get worse. Except they don't, the double blind testing showed age cohort related preference clustering, but no proof for 'everything was better in the old days'. This study was for strawberries but I don't see why it would be different.

Alternatively, younger people don't know what they are missing. As the article points out it's not a sudden drop it's a low change over time where A is almost as good as B and B is almost as good as C ... until it's cardboard.

I have done this experiment with Apples and Oranges kids really prefer the full flavor options and they are not just preferring their childhood tastes as they are still kids.

Time to break open a seed vault and see who's right. We give young'uns the old stuff and see how they react. And then make a fortune if you're right, and make nothing if your parent comment is right.

I think you're missing the point: it's not that the flavour of the breeds has gotten words, it's that the breeds with the more distinct flavours have largely gone away.

When there are less than a handful varieties widely available anymore and the breeds that made it were picked based on practical concerns rather than taste, it's pretty obvious why someone who experienced the full range of flavours might consider today's offerings quite bland.

Case in point: there is a wide range of apple breeds with very different flavours that was used for various dishes traditionally. Trying to use the same one or two breeds that are still widely available for the same dishes leads to naturally very different (and arguably inferior as the recipes were specifically created with those breeds in minds) results regardless of whether the apple by itself would have been any tastier.

I have friends who grow heirloom varieties of vegetables, they often complain that it's hard to compete with supermarket stuff because of productivity (price), seasonality, appearance (I.e. some tomato never gets properly red and people think it's less tasty) etc.

Their stuff tastes great, but you won't be making a fortune with it unless you cater to people who care about this stuff and are willing to pay more.

Afaict this is what "whole foods" does in the US and they are pretty successful.

>Flavors change, so as you get older, you think flavors get worse.

Yeah, except that it's more like flavors didn't change so much as disappear.

Meanwhile I'm 31 and have semi-recently had both strawberries with a distinct strawberry flavour and strawberries that tasted like edible water. Ditto for tomatoes and even watermelons.

It's not that the flavour got worse, it's that a lot of fruits and vegetables were selected for other factors than what they taste like. They don't taste different, they just don't taste much like anything.

I'm not saying this confirms that "everything was better in the old days" but flavour differences are real and being picky about strawberries or tomatoes isn't just about preferring what you grew up with. The watery breeds aren't so widespread because younger people prefer them, they're widespread for economical reasons and younger people (allegedly) prefer them because they're more familiar with them.

While in principle I agree, I'm afraid that when it comes to supermarket goods, they are really tasteless and age has nothing to do here. Do a simple experiment: get generic strawberries from a supermarket and fresh ones from a garden. You would be amazed by the difference, it's like a totally different thing. Same goes for pretty much any fruit or vegetable.

I thought I disliked tomatoes as a kid, eating around them as you describe. Only when I discovered garden-grown cherry tomatoes did I flip the other way. So far the other way I'm surprised I didn't get sick eating so many of them. They're incredible.

When people say I'm full of it or delusional, I ask them to try one of the tomatoes and tell me if it tastes anything like spaghetti or pizza sauce, or simple, un-seasoned tomato sauce, or even goddamned ketchup.

I could totally be delusional about the popcorn, though — I'm not that old. But one could do a taste test: 5600 year old kernels were shown to still pop.

My family has a countryside house with a small greenhouse. Whenever I visit over the summer when the tomatoes are getting ripe, I go to see it. On a sunny day, opening the doors hits me with such an incredible fragrant tomato aroma followed by a eating a fresh off-the-vine tomato, that buying any tomato in a supermarket now just ends in big disappointment with how flavourless it is.

Have you tried sungolds? They are a little smaller than cherry tomatoes, yellow-orange and even better, IMO. They are sweet but still retain a ton of tomato flavor. They also grow like crazy. If you give them something to climb on, plenty of sun and water the plants get huge. Here in CA I had them fruiting this year from May all the way into December. Finally the frost got them.

Oh man! Those are actually what I was thinking of. I used to live in CA and my folks had a plant. The thing got out of control huge.

> canners use varieties that have not been ruined for shipping

This explains why I love canned/boxed tomatoes, but hate the slimy, bland sliced ones they put on sandwiches.

If a sliced tomato is slimy on your sandwich, that's not a variety problem, it's a preparation problem (in that application, tomatoes, regardless of variety, should be seeded.) Bland may be a variety problem, though it can also be a poor handling problem.

If there is no flavor, you are left only with texture.

A home grown heirloom tomato is amazing. The stuff that they try to pass off in the stores as a tomato is awful.

There are 2 really good canned variety's available in the US (IMHO):

1) San Marzano (imported) 2) Muir Glen Organic

Odd. Either I have terrible tastebuds or it doesn't matter in this particular application, but last time I made sauce with San Marzano vs generic tomatoes no one could tell the difference.

Someone more experienced want to pipe in and help my ignorance?

Not experienced, but (1) unless tomatoes feature prominently in a recipe, the details of their flavour won't have that much impact, (2) for any expensive protected-origin kind of stuff, there's a chance somebody just took the plain stuff and relabelled it.

Depending on how you cooked it, the difference might be subtle enough that only someone familiar with it would notice.

Try eating the tomato raw, like an apple. A good tomato is wonderful with just a sprinkle of salt.

I only started noticing the difference after I grew my own heirloom tomatoes. I was amazed when I ate my first harvest, fresh off the plant. I had never tasted a tomato before in my life! Basic supermarket tomatoes just taste like water.

Worth noting that San Marzano is an Italian DOC, distinct from the US brand SMT, which has previously called their tomatoes San Marzano, despite not actually being that. They engage(d) in various shady practices so I personally avoid them and suggest others do too.

For more info, see http://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/68538/are-these-t...

You can make popcorn in a saucepan, it's easy and fun. Gourmet popcorn (different kernels) also tastes far better even than the bulk kernels you can find in the store.

I do this, and yeah, the results are pretty great, even with ordinary and easy-to-find Orville Redenbacher corn (off and store brands, not so much).

Have you found any varieties that taste like the parent poster describes? I.E. with heavy corn flavor? I've tried a few "heirloom" varieties and they've usually been nuttier-tasting, with smaller pops and a much worse popped-to-unpopped ratio than the Redenbacher corn (though the flavor's usually interesting enough that I don't mind that too much). Definitely not cornier-tasting—farther from it, if anything.

Yeah, I tried some Trader Joe's organic stuff, and the result was smaller kernels that were not very crisp.

Redenbachers seems to do the job texture wise, but I'd love to hear about some really great lesser known stuff.

Yes, one of my wife's patients would bring in some of his from time to time, and it was the best popcorn I've ever tasted. Haven't had it in a while though.

It's hilarious. I grew up in the rural midwest and I was taught to make "popped corn" on the stove in a pot with a little bit of oil by my grand mother. I love it this way, so does my wife, and I still prefer to make it this way to today. However, we had a very good friend over recently and I made popcorn for the 3 of us on the stove and she thought it was way beyond weird. She actually bought us one of those air popcorn makers for Christmas and was like, "Here, now you guys don't have to use the stove to make popcorn anymore!"

My parents had a pot with a top, and a crank in the handle that could be turned to stop the kernels from sticking. I suppose it's the more commercial version of what you grew up doing. It looks like they're still available for $20 or $30.

Those hand crank popcorn poppers can be pretty good at roasting your own coffee, if you're interested.

I don't know about others, but I for one would like to learn more. Do you have any links or further info?

http://legacy.sweetmarias.com/stovepopmethod.php

I've been roasting coffee stovetop for about a year. Takes me about 10 minutes to roast 12 ounces, the result is great, and it only ends up costing about $1/lb more than what I used to pay for roasted beans at Costco. If you like coffee at all, I highly recommend giving it a try!

Yep - me too, and I've used a variety of beans from that same source to great effect. Good luck. Also, if you're in the bay area, I'll be happy to give you a demo if you need it.

I used that for a while, eventually we switched to a hot air popper which seemed to do a better job with less fuss. Then, in December, I got a Behmor 1600+ which is really nice.

And from experience, they're hands down the best option in every factor but convenience. Air poppers are basically flavorless (you need the oil), and electric auto-stirring machines are bulky and don't get hot enough.

The brand we've always had is Whirlypop.

Waiting for the oil to get hot, and cleaning up afterwards, are both basically wastes of time. I remember switching to air poppers happily.

I guess? I mean, if that's your stance then isn't cooking any food at all is a waste of time because of waiting on things to get hot and the ensuing clean up?

I can tell you that getting the oil hot takes all of ~2 minutes and it's not like I'm standing over top of the stove waiting for it to happen. Cleaning up takes about 30 seconds to wash the pot, the lid, and whatever bowl I used to hold the popcorn. If I ever find myself thinking, "Geez, I really wish I had that 3 or 4 minutes back" then I'd be trying to find out what's really going on in my life that is making me feel that way. I can tell you with certainty that it sure wouldn't be the 3 or 4 minutes it takes to cook the popcorn and then clean up a pot, it's lid, and a bowl afterwords.

My thing with air poppers is that the oil imparts a flavor that you obviously don't get otherwise and which I happen to prefer greatly to air popped popcorn.

I grew up making popcorn like this - my mother had a special pan with a crank on top that stirred the kernels.

I now have a machine that does the same thing. I just put a bit of oil in the bottom (very little) and let it do the stuff.

The real pro trick is to not put a lid on the pan. Instead use an inverted metal colander. You will get some small amount of oil on your stove top but it's worth it. This method allows the water vapor to escape which yields much lighter airier popcorn but unlike an air popper you still get all the flavor from the oil. Toasted sesame oil or coconut oil are really good.

Try a whirley-pop popper. It has vents at the top to let out the steam and a hand-cranked rotor to agitate the popcorn as it is popping so that the unpopped kernels fall to the bottom to finish cooking.

I find that I can get near 100% yield with only minimal agitation in a regular pan. The popcorn popping provides plenty of agitation on it's own.

I love doing it this way. Cheaper, tastier, less salty. And once you get the technique down it doesn't even take that much longer.

For popcorn the best I have found is an heirloom variety called "Tiny But Mighty" (http://tinybutmightyfoods.com) that pops up as tiny hull-less popcorn. It looks a bit strange the first time you make it, as the popped kernels are much smaller than standard popcorn, but the taste is worth it. And you should be using a whirly-pop to do the popping :)

I'm under 40, but I know what you mean. My parents always grew some corn in the garden and we'd get popcorn after we got the seeds. I don't know shit about gardening so I haven't figured this out yet.

Canned tomatoes are still less flavorful breeds, they're just fully ripened.

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