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Comment by scient | Hacker News Reader

Please stop talking about things you have no clue about. I have been in the US for 3+ years now on a H1B visa and during all this time my wife, who has an MBA, is not allowed to work here - which is absolute garbage. The change was the right one in the right direction, but not enough.

You also greatly overestimate the amount of competent people in the US. Most companies, like FB and Google and Uber, and not hiring from abroad because its cheaper. They are doing it because there are not enough competent people in the US to fill the jobs.

The companies abusing H1Bs are a different story, and those should be handled.

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> "Please stop talking about things you have no clue about. I have been in the US for 3+ years now on a H1B visa and during all this time my wife, who has an MBA, is not allowed to work here - which is absolute garbage."

I have lived here all my life and you have lived here "3+ years" and yet you say I don't know what I'm talking about.

The intent of the H1-B visa law is clear: It is meant only for STEM workers when there is no American to fill the role. That's it. Period.

American employment should come first. Sorry if you don't like that, but you can always return to your country and maybe there your wife can find a job.

Do you know that there are Americans with MBAs that can't find jobs? Don't you think they should have priority over immigrants?

> "You also greatly overestimate the amount of competent people in the US. Most companies, like FB and Google and Uber, and not hiring from abroad because its cheaper. They are doing it because there are not enough competent people in the US to fill the jobs."

Where's your evidence, because I completely disagree? You'll note that these firms you mention are not offering the same or higher wages for immigrants than Americans but lower ones.

I wonder if other's on HN believe as you do that there aren't enough competent Americans in STEM.

But since you're so knowledgeable, please cite the reliable evidence of this claim.

>> The intent of the H1-B visa law is clear: It is meant only for STEM workers when there is no American to fill the role. ___That's it. Period.___

Are you Sean Spicer? ;)

Actually, never heard the guy talk. :-)

Just because you've lived in the US for all your life doesn't mean much when talking about something specific scient went through.

Note also, his comment addressed issues he perceived and solutions that would directly affect change in a positive way for you! Let me spell it out for you: if H1-B wasn't as restrictive, then companies couldn't abuse them for lower salaries, making Americans (in your view) more competitive.

Anyway, why should American employment come first? How have you contributed to the country more than a random foreigner, by default? If anything, it benefits a country to have immigrants (who it hasn't invested in) come and provide expertise for free! That free expertise is what H1-B was/is for.

From this, it also follows that it benefits a country to make use of a highly qualified spouse of an immigrant.

> "Anyway, why should American employment come first?"

Because we are American citizens. Ask about any American and they will agree as will our President, that immigrants should not be displacing Americans from jobs.

This is true of about any country and I and most agree with this that citizens come first for employment. If there are no citizens to fill the role anywhere in the country, then by all means hire a immigrant.

Many firms could hire more competent workers by locating office where the competent workers live.

For example, Google has a huge office building in NYC and hires many New Yorkers. Microsoft, Amazon, Facebook, Apple do not have such a large presence in NYC for engineering as Google and that is part of the problem those firms may have in terms of hiring competent people.

> "So it follows that it benefits a country to make use of a highly qualified spouse of an immigrant."

Your wife would be taking the job of an American. I'm sorry, but I don't see how that is a good thing. Maybe your wife can get a job in the country you are from instead of displacing American jobs.

>For example, Google has a huge office building in NYC and hires many New Yorkers.

You sound more and more like a closet xenophobe. I have multiple friends that work in that office. Majority of techies there are foreign born, although only a small percentage of them are on H1Bs.

> "Majority of techies there are foreign born"

Do you work in human relations at Google? Otherwise how would you know this. It hires many, many engineers.

The issue is the abuse of the H1-B Visa system to hire employees at lower wage rates than Americans. I have absolutely no problem with an H1-B Visa issued for its original intent which is in the case that there is no American to fill the job. Usually, there are Americans to fill the job, but the firm frequently doesn't want to offer the wages necessary to employ them.

Don't assume whether my wife is an immigrant or not. Or, that her job is fungible enough to be so easily displaced.

Anyway, my point was that the US as a whole benefits from immigrants.

So, from a economic standpoint your comment doesn't make sense.

I understand that Americans coming first in Americah is what you believe in. That doesn't make it right. It's something you can fight for/vote for[0]/we can talk about. But you can't just beg the question when asked why you think so.

[0] It's not something I have or will ever vote for. Because I believe in a meritocracy and pursuit of happiness open to all.

> "Don't assume whether my wife is an immigrant or not."

From the context you supplied earlier, it seems she is not allowed to work here, therefore, not a US citizen.

> "Anyway, my point was that the US as a whole benefits from immigrants."

I don't disagree. My problem is not with immigrants. My ancestors were immigrants. But they did not displace American jobs or depress wage rates through an H1-B Visa type program that was abused. They became American citizens.

> "I understand that Americans coming first in Americah is what you believe in. That doesn't make it right."

It is not only what I believe, but more importantly what about every American believes. What is wrong is that immigrants are taking jobs from Americans or depressing wage rates. There is no question that that is wrong. Perhaps immigrants should get jobs in their own countries.

"ComputerWorld reports that following an announcement by Disney in October 2014 that the company would be using an offshore outsourcing firm for future hiring, tensions between workers and Disney became strained. The company began hiring South Asian workers at a rapid pace, and some current Disney workers were forced to begin training their H-1B visa worker replacements.

In January of 2015 nearly 250 Disney IT workers were laid off, leading 30 of those former Disney employees to file a lawsuit in the US District Court of Orlando."

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/12/14/disney-it-workers-f...

You probably thought I was the parent.

Anyway, since it seems to be a sticking point with you, my wife and I are Americans, but I don't believe that Americans, by default, should get a job over immigrants[0]. So it's not everybody :)

As I mentioned in a previous comment, I believe in a meritocracy and the pursuit of happiness for all. And, all doesn't mean just people who lucked out by being born in America.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this point.

[0] if the first word that jumped into your head was some variation of "[race] traitor", then I suggest you consider your subconscious biases in this debate.

Here is a wild theory: Maybe it would be better if the US got more closed down regarding immigration and engaged in protectionism - better for everyone that is. It would make it harder for US businesses to take advantage of cheap overseas labour, which in turn would raise the prices of everything they produce and make companies in other countries more competitive on the market of goods, thereby decreasing the desire to immigrate to the US further.

This could be the most effective way in which the US could help move the world towards the ideal of global equality :)

note: My knowledge of economy and finance is nearly non-existent, which should inform you about the value of the above opinion

All immigration serves to drive overall wages down.

No basic income serves to drive overall wages down.

I agree with that, but not sure how it refutes the point I was making.

But most immigrants from Mexico do not drive down IT workers wages. But abuse and increase of H1-B Visas does down IT worker wages.

You can argue it does indirectly.

If blue collar job wages are driven very low, more people will choose STEM careers, which will also serve to drive IT job wages down.

so, as long as it is not in IT industry, it is okay to drive the wages down ?

I was simply replying in the context of the article which is regarding abuse of H1-B visas and a fix. Actually it applies to the larger category of all of STEM, not only IT.

I don't think it is right to drive anyone's wages down through immigration whether working class or STEM.

I don't have a proof of the claim mentioned above, but I am a Canadian working in the US in one of the tech companies mentioned above. Not only I have never applied to work at the company I'm at, I've never applied to work at any US based company, ever.

Telling people they can "always return [back to where ever they are from]" is pretty offensive and counter-productive.

They aren't here to make you happy, nor will they leave for that end.

Taking the same tone: why don't you find a career/job where you feel you have enough competitive advantage?

I agree on the intent for the H1-B visa, no issues there. That does not mean that immigrants should be barred or Americans always chosen over the immigrant. The selection should happen based on their competency - if I'm a better candidate than any US candidate, I should get the job. Picking an immigrants over an American candidate because the immigrant is cheaper is the problem - although even here its not as black and white as you would want to.

Now as far as H4 vida holders, you are completely wrong and misunderstanding the issue. Sure, there are tons of MBA holders who cant find jobs. Does that mean she should not even be allowed to compete for any of the available jobs, even she might be more qualified for it? Or she might not be, who knows, this is why you have a free market, the employer can decide.

And the tech giants have equal salary levels associated with the peoples titles and experience. The whole thing about paying immigrants less is just utter bs. I'm in a senior position in my company, I see all the candidates coming through for engineering and the amount of available great engineering talent is very very low - and this is not a unique issue to the US. There is a reason why the tech giants are throwing stacks of money at these people. Its also the reason why I was brought in on a H1-B visa.

All in all I agree with fixing the issue of salary dumping via H1-B outsourcing, but barring actual talented immigrants, while following the rules of the visa process, seems beyond dumb. You WANT to bring in talented people, it raises the overall talent level of the whole pool as a whole, and having dumb restrictions making their lives more difficult (such as H4 work permit rules) makes little sense. As opposed to not having the talent brought in lowering the overall level of the whole pool because of arbitrary rules.

I get paid as you, I pay taxes just like you, I contribute to the society and economics just like you. Yet you seem to be determined that me being here is a bad thing. Ridiculous.

> "I agree on the intent for the H1-B visa, no issues there. That does not mean that immigrants should be barred or Americans always chosen over the immigrant. The selection should happen based on their competency"

No, America is for Americans not for the world. You have your own country where typically Americans cannot work.

If you speak with most Americans they would agree. If you speak to people from other countries they agree that the jobs should be for people from their country.

> "You WANT to bring in talented people"

You can develop and train them and by offering appropriate wages, talented people will go into those fields. But in a situation where firms use immigrants to depress wages, who wants to be in that situation? -- they'd rather go into law or medicine where it is much harder to have foreign competition.

> "Sure, there are tons of MBA holders who cant find jobs. Does that mean she should not even be allowed to compete for any of the available jobs, even she might be more qualified for it? Or she might not be, who knows, this is why you have a free market, the employer can decide."

Free market as long as they are American citizens or in a STEM job for which there absolutely no American that can do it.

Some more junior people may just benefit from job training. I can't speak to the exact situations, but most American firms will do fine employing American MBAs over immigrants.

> You also greatly overestimate the amount of competent people in the US. Most companies, like FB and Google and Uber, and not hiring from abroad because its cheaper. They are doing it because there are not enough competent people in the US to fill the jobs.

I disagree with this. I think companies abusing H1Bs aggravate the issue of lack of diversity in the tech industry based on my experience alone as a minority in the tech industry. There must be a good amount of competent people in the US, they just happen to be minorities. There's recruiters and even hiring managers at tech companies that believe that a South Asian, East Asian, European, white male/female is more competent than a Latino or African American male or female, based on their name alone. Being on hiring committees at a tech giant, I've found that bias is even greater when dealing with South Asian and East Asian hiring managers, who usually prefer to hire competent people from their countries (Sometimes requiring visas, sometimes not). I can't imagine it's that much different at other tech companies.

I like the idea of spouses being able to work, and I hope Trump doesn't get rid of that. I went through the same thing as you. But ultimately, you can't blame the US for the rule. You knew the rules when you came here. So did I. You weren't tricked into it.

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