Ask HN: How do you get into a niche field like SAP development? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: How do you get into a niche field like SAP development?

63 pointsjamesmp9848 comments

How do you break into a career in a niche field like SAP development. From what I see, I can learn about SAP all I want, but without professional experience, it wouldn't seem like you can get a job working with it?

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I work in that very field, so I hope this input will be useful to you:

There's no one thing called "SAP" anymore. It's many platforms, ranging from the old ERP (with its ABAP programming language) to CRM to HR to E-commerce. With the exception of its proprietary tools (like ABAP), you can certainly leverage your Java/JS skills.

If you have access to SAP training (though it's neither cheap nor easily accessible), get some training on the dev tools and find beginner-level openings in companies or consulting firms. (Reality check: the latter will be harder - you are competing with a truly global developer-base for SAP.)

If you don't have access to training, then drop the proprietary ABAP route and stick to Java. You can apply those skills in SAP's more open stacks for e-commerce, mobile etc.

The public sector (Federal/State governments, public utilities, military etc) are also big SAP users and are often hard-pressed to find US citizens (assuming you are a US citizen). That may be another avenue to explore.

What level in your career are you at? If you're recently out of school, the easiest way I know of is to get hired into one of the big 4 consulting firms. (eg: PwC, Accenture, etc). Associates are hired with little experience - related experience is fine. If you're more senior, possibly take an "around the edges" approach - or specialize in the underlying integration technology (eg: java, etc...whatever it is). Creating a plugin or similarly deep diving if you can get into their developer / customer program. If you're wanting to go into it because of salaries - I understand that. Realize what you're getting into. The salaries may be higher - but the work may be un-relentingly boring. You might also look into competitors in the space that are more SaaS'y, and less Enterprise footprint-y.

Just to nitpick: Accenture is not part of the Big4 (PWC/Deloitte/E&Y/KPMG).

I think that's true. But Accenture does a lot of SAP work as far as I can tell based on experience.

To nitpick further (but this isn't in common parlance), Accenture was a part of Arthur Andersen, which itself was a part of the Big Five until Enron happened.

But you're entirely right in that Accenture isn't considered a part of the Big Four accounting firms precisely because its skillset is advisory rather than accounting.

To nitpick even further, Accenture was not a part of Arthur Andersen. It was known as Andersen Consulting, and when they split from Arthur Andersen, they adopted Accenture as a name.

That split took place in 1989. Prior to that, it was a part of Arthur Andersen itself, at least if Wikipedia is to be believed.

But this is a meaningless exchange at this point. haha

"Big 4" used to refer to accounting firms. Accenture used to be a part of the "Big 5" with Andersen, but they had to re-brand because of the Enron scandal. They no longer do accounting.

But now all these companies are bleeding over into each others business areas - many do strategy, operations, implementation, accounting.

another minor nitpick-- Arthur Anderson had just recently spun off its consulting division as Accenture before the Enron scandal hit, not in reaction to it. It was a move that had been planned for some time. And I'm sure they thanked their lucky stars they completed the spin-off before Enron; Accenture was safely insulated from the fallout that absolutely killed Arthur Anderson.

Didn't know that - really interesting! Always had the assumption they were an Enron crisis relict.

Auditors cannot provide other services—mainly tax and IT—to audit clients for auditor independence (SOX in the US, Combined Code in the UK and similar laws are in application worldwide).

All Big4 firms had to shelve their IT consulting to separate divisions or into new companies which most later sold:

Arthur Anderson formed Anderson Consulting which later became Accenture.

Ernst Young - Ernst & Young Consulting which was acquired by Capgemini

PriceWaterhouceCoopers sold to IBM Global Services

Deloitte retained its consulting division I think

KPMG - KPMG Consulting - Bearingpoint?

I think Deloitte and Touche is the tax/audit arm, and Deloitte is the consulting arm.

They all seem to have re-started their consulting activites. Not sure what makes it different this time.

I have limited knowledge of this world, so I'm curious: higher salaries compared to what segment? And boring compared to what segment? Run of the mill non-SAP software that runs on some corporate intranet? Consumer-facing crud apps?

I just did a search on GlassDoor for some of the Big 4, and intro salaries for "Sap consultant" (usually 0-3 years experience) was $103k USD. Cybersecurity engineers in that range were $78-85k (usually a higher paid group of Big 4).

This. Accenture's ATS program use to recruit and place dozens of fresh graduates on SAP projects couple years ago.

>How do you break into a career in a niche field like SAP development.

OH GOD WHY? Have you used SAP? SAP is the most expensive pile of shit I have ever seen. No company in their right mind would deploy such a system at this point in time.

people pay good money to maintain expensive piles of shit.

Yeah why, why anchor your career to a closed platform tied to a company ?

The SAP developers at my friend's company bill at $350/hour, minimum 3 hours.

One of the main reasons I picked my current career is because it paid relatively well. I came to regret it. I got burnt out and grew to hate it. I wish I'd chosen a career in something I really loved instead, even if it didn't pay that well.

Exactly this. I don't really care if it pays well if I hate the system. If I hate using it, if I don't believe in it, if I feel like it isn't the right product for the customers I am supposed to help.

What career are you in?

Doesn't mean much because they are only paying that rate based on the reputation of the company they hire.

For example if the average SAP dev at your friend's company left to do independent consulting, the rate wouldn't even be in the same ballpark.

The rates for SAP consultants are double to triple what I am getting.

For me, I would prefer to be paid three times what I am getting now to maintain someone's piece of crap legacy software, given that what I do now is maintain someone's piece of crap legacy software.

The difference in salary, put into perspective: on my current rates I need to save for three years to buy a Model 3. On double the salary, I can buy a Model S every other year.

Forget orange, disposable income is the new black.

The difference is those consultants have already been in the field accruing experience for several years. If you enter now, you'll unable to command those compensation packages. Or even if you manage to, it will not last long. There are 100s of thousands of consultants from offshored operations that will gladly undercut you.

Considering the level of "skill" I've seen in these consultants (not enough to consider a decent sample size) I wonder how long it would take to get to expert level proficiency?

No, not once you compare apples to apples with similar development skill sets, talent, experience, subject matter expertise. It's not double or triple.

Starting in an analyst, support, or end-user role is a good way to get exposure. Or try working with a small boutique consulting firm as an alternative to the big guys, you may get more variety of experience.

Understanding the business processes supported by the application will set you apart from other developers. It is common to find developers without business process or functional experience, and visa versa. If you have some of both types of experience it will set you apart.

Source: I started as an accountant and ERP end-user, moved to a functional analyst role, and am currently working as a data engineer.

This is pretty good advice, this is how I ended up getting into Salesforce stuff. Started at a company that used Salesforce heavily on the help desk (which used it as a ticketing system), after 4-5 months I managed to get into a Jr. Salesforce Developer role.

I no longer work there, nor do I work full-time on Salesforce projects, but I do maintain our small Salesforce org at my current employer as an additional responsibility and if I ever decide to move back into it full-time I'll have the experience to do so (I can't really see it, Salesforce is a great tool but not something I enjoyed having 100% of my time consumed by, I'm much happier in my current DevOps role).

Others have covered that the usual path is to first have a job that sends you to SAP training. That could be an entry level job at a consultancy, or a job at a Fortune 500 that uses SAP...where the initial job isn't specifically SAP, but you find a way to get onto the project.

It would be difficult to do that any other way, as the setup costs to have your own SAP environment to learn on are prohibitively high.

That said, there are other niches where the environment and tools are available to you at a reasonable cost. You can, for example, sign up for a Salesforce.com developer account. Perhaps not SAP niche level salaries to be had, but Salesforce experience is in demand.

Just one example though...generally, search for niches with a reasonable way to get access to the platform if you want to gain some experience on your own. Other ideas might be single-sign-on/kerberos/saml/oauth, devops (puppet, chef, docker, etc) or specific e-commerce shopping cart software (magento, for example). Keep in mind though, light experience will likely only help landing an entry level spot.

You work for a company that uses / consults for SAP, and they either give you training or send you off to get trained. It's the same way with most of the big ERP systems.

You said "like" SAP, not SAP only, so let me suggest Cobol. It's a language we rarely hear about but it is an exotic niche that could also pay well. Well, this is just an idea, I'm not an expert on Cobol.

I don' think so. Most COBOL jobs I've seen want like 10-15 years experience which is effectively impossible to obtain in 2017.

Maybe, but I don't know. A lot of the COBOL-herders for billing systems for utilities are retiring and people are searching for a journeyman coder they can train. For now, the situation is held together by these older people retiring, and then coming back on as consultants until replacements are found and trained -- and they aren't cheap.

Work for a solutions provider. Get yourself on a SAP project and ask for SAP training alongside. Work your way up. At some point you'll be senior enough to leave an get yourself lucrative contracting gigs.

Study the new SAP systems like SAP HANA, SAP S/4HANA, or SAP Fiori. SAP moved from R/2 -> R/3 -> SAP ERP -> SAP S/4HANA. It is always easier to jump on the new wave than try to compete with experts with decades of experience in a system.

As an SAP (ABAP and web) developer: I stumbled upon an internship 10 years ago which provided me with some formal training and a company to work for. It's not an easy specialty to get into. Most developers I know are either converted key users or the old school mainframe type guys since ABAP resembles COBOL in it's syntax. The younger ones generally come in through the large consulting companies who move massive amounts of juniors around to see who fits where. Think IBM, wipro, TCS.

These days it's a little bit easier because you can get developer editions of HANA for free, and their front end framework is open source (UI5).

A friend of mine was recently recruited by company implementing SAP/ABAP technology stack for their clients. He has been interviewed mostly solving problems via Java and SQL.

A couple years ago, SAP courses were offered at my university; that should be an interesting route for students, but might also work for people who live close by - the explicit goal is to create more SAP programmers, and filling an open seat in a course that would happen anyway isn't expensive for SAP.

SAP and such ERP systems are where developers go to die. That's what happens when your bag of luck runs out, and you haven't filled your bag of skills yet. Try something else. If you want to make real money, start a business. Hourly wages only go so high.

Join a consultancy firm that specializes in that area, many will hire people with zero experience in the area and train them up. It's also the best place to learn as you'll be exposed to many different deployments.

friends of mine are working in the SAP domain. They just got hired for junior consulting positions at SAP consulting companies (smaller ones). There they got the (expensive) trainings for some of the SAP modules, which they then use to implement customer solutions.

From what I see here in germany there are lots of these positions available, since SAP is everywhere. It seems to pay slightly better then average developer jobs, but as consultants the people there are often away on business.

Aren't we seeing more and more companies (especially smaller companies who could never afford SAP to begin with) move towards programs like JIRA, and achieving much of the same.

Where would JIRA (including its wealth of plugins) lack in terms of what SAP can offer?

How about, JIRA is an issue tracker last I checked, SAP has provided a wide range of corp/biz solutions from ERP to what-not since the early 70s...

Hmmmm. Does JIRA offer ERP solutions for small to mid-sized? I think Epicor is one of the ERPs that is sort of leading the pack for SMB.

man ABAP gives me night terrors

if you are clever, you will probably suffer from over-corporate environment and seeing customers being milked because of vendor-lockin (aka morality, not so common feature as I would like).

if you want enterprise, high salaries and don't mind/welcome wearing a suit every day, I suggest rather JEE - backend never dies in one way or another, and it is actually a very interesting field to live in.

IMHO one merge/market crash might gradually wipe the SAP market much easier rather Java.

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