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Comment by temp246810 | Hacker News Reader

LA's traffic problem is the sheer volume of traffic.

If you introduce another pipe, that pipe will immediately get saturated.

LA has a TON of infrastructure, tons of long, expansive 6 lane highways, HOV lanes, Express lanes, tons of wide boulevards with 2-3 lanes in each direction.

LA is massive on a scale people don't realize - it's not as crazy as when you go to Manhattan for the first time because it's not built up. But spend some time there and you will be impressed by how big that city is. Think of the suburb you grew up in - big parking lots, wide streets, strip malls.

LA is like a giant, oversprawled suburb with 16MM+ people in the metro area.

Not saying we should just say screw it and give up, but the answer here isn't more roads or highways or tunnels.

It's things like uber, public transporation, car shares, things that get cars off the road.

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There are just too. many. damn. cars. Just run the numbers. In the LA area there are 16 million people. National average is 2 cars for every 3 people. That's over 10 million cars. If we take that an average parking space is 7 feet by 15 feet, that's 105 square feet per space. 10 million spaces is 1 billion square feet. That's 36 square miles. That's literally a square 6 miles on a side--just to park the cars once. There is probably 3 times that many spots in LA, when you consider that every place a car goes it needs a spot. That's over 100 square miles just to park cars. That's not even to drive them!

Get the cars off the road, get them the hell out of the city, take back that parking space and road space, and replace it with taxis, trains, subways, trams, bicycles, busses, and literally _everything_ else but cars. The last thing LA needs is another freeway, above or below ground.

This is also one of these situations where a picture is worth a lot of words: http://wearetraffic.org/sites/default/files/images/Bike_Car_.... Depicted that way, one immediately and intuitively understands why 100 people in cars are so much harder to move than 100 people in other modalities.

You're forgetting parking structures with multiple floors. Still a lot though.

    If you introduce another pipe, that pipe will immediately get saturated.

Not if you price it high enough, which is what makes this all potentially profitable.

You're onto a solution that doesn't require spending billions on digging: Price roads comprehensively.

> It's things like uber, public transporation, car shares, things that get cars off the road.

I agree about some, but Uber? Doesn't Uber do the opposite of take cars off the road? Every Uber (or Zipcar) ride is a missed opportunity to take public transportation. (Where that would have been an option.) Plus, extra cars are on the road between rides.

Uber and ZipCar may take cars out of people's garages (remove the need for car ownership) but that's a different thing.

I live in a city with a good subway system. My co-workers and I can ride it for free because our company buys us unlimited passes. But I see them still paying for Uber rides themselves out of laziness for trips they could use public transportation for.

I think the idea with Uber and cabs in general is you can take a train most of the way and then a cab to your end destination. In fact it would be cool if Uber built trains into their software so you could just say where you were going and it would offer cab-train-cab as an option.

Self driving cars may also help fix traffic issues. With fewer accidents, cars able to communicate with each other, and no overly aggressive or timid driving to cause slow downs, an entirely full freeway might be able to flow at high speed.

For sure - I've always wondered what the theoretical maximum of a road system is vs it's practical maximum.

That is, how many cars can a system accommodate where the cars drive perfectly, vs how many cars driven by humans a highway can accommodate.

I wonder if this analysis has been done somewhere.

Self driving cars might actually make traffic worse because people can live farther away where houses are cheaper because now they can work or sleep during their commute. This means any given section of road will have more cars on it because people have to travel farther.

There will also be cars driving around with no drivers. So even more cars!

"It's things like uber, public transporation, car shares, things that get cars off the road."

Or things that literally get cars off the road, like flying cars.

Yeah Musk needs to start listening to transportation experts and read about Induced Demand.

I feel like Elon has done some vetting on this before just jumping into it.

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