Comment by adevine | Hacker News Reader

Comment by adevine | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

You are confusing legal restrictions specifically set up to limit the power of the state with tools every company will use to limit fraud.

For example, you speak of "presumption of innocence" and "burden of proof" as "core concepts of our justice system". These are only core concepts of our criminal justice system; our civil justice system has very different rules for burden of proof, for example.

Some countries have much, much higher percentage of fraudulent transactions than other countries, and it's perfectly reasonable for Western Union to use country of origin as a factor in raising the fraud red flag. Western Union doesn't have the power to arrest anybody, and they have no reason to "presume innocence" for any one of their customers. If anything, when it comes to monetary transfers, I think it's safer to "presume guilt", that is assume all transactions have reason to be fraudulent, and then only let transactions through if you have strong reason to believe they are not fraudulent.

The burden of proof is still on the party forwarding an accusation in civil cases. Presumption of innocence still holds in civil cases.

Presumption of innocence is even in the UN universal declaration of human rights.

What is considered burden of proof would be different, but it is still responsibility of the person forwarding the accusation. What you describe would be an accusation through "probable cause", described as reasonable grounds to conduct a search or investigation.

That being said I think country of origin are not reasonable grounds. Could be an individual sending money home, could be a merchant, could be anything.

You bring up justice system and cases, but you fail to remember that we're talking about a company deciding not to do business with someone.

With someone or an entire country? Based on what specifically? to which extent?

300 people in a 173 million people country do fraud, flag them all?

It matters less what the ratio of bad actors to population is, and more what the ratio of bad actors to legitimate orders is. In the examples I mentioned above, they were seeing hundreds, perhaps thousands of bad orders without seeing any genuine ones. From countries with known issues of trafficking stolen goods.

The truly genuine customers can contact the company directly and deal with them directly, rather than buying through a site.

When your per-capita GDP is a few dollars a day, the odds that the order for a multi-thousand-dollar consumer electronics item is genuine gets awfully close to zero.

You call it discrimination against an entire country, I call it a sensible policy for a seller to enact. If you'd like to volunteer to police these fraudulent purchases, I'm sure they'd appreciate the help, but when you have an entire department that spends most of its time dealing with orders from two countries, orders which almost always turn out to be fraud, the most sensible way forward becomes nearly self-evident.

As others have mentioned, you seem to draw no distinction between constraints on governments, justice systems, and private policy determined by individuals and companies. I think until you stop confusing the two concepts (and the vocabulary thereof), you'll have a difficult time persuading anyone to come around to your thinking. (To say nothing of forming a coherent ethical argument for why you think this is some great injustice and what possible solutions might be.)

You are not taking in consideration that poor countries have high inequality and disproportionally rich people at the top. So no, that's not correct.

I'm taking exactly that into consideration–Nigeria has a sizable population, but very few people who can actually buy expensive consumer goods from western countries. So the odds are even more likely that orders are fraudulent. This isn't a country with a giant middle class.

Those few are actually in the order of hundreds of thousands if not millions. You are talking about a 173 million people country.

If only 1% of 173 million had a western-like middle-class+ purchasing power, that gives you? 1.73 million. A lot of people you can do business with. Like 4x that of Luxembourg.

You are also not taking into consideration that I, quite frankly, do not have the time or expertise to vet everyone who tries to buy something from me.

> Presumption of innocence still holds in civil cases.

This is just flat out, 100% wrong. Mainly because "innocence" and "guilt" aren't even concepts that apply in civil cases.

All of your responses still seem to assume that businesses somehow have the same level of responsibilities and restrictions of a government, and that is just not true.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com