Ask HN: Need help with job offer negotiation

If you haven't already, read this article by our own "patio11": http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/

Like others said, be nice but firm. Once during an interview, I was told that my desired salary range was above the top of the band for that job. I said with a big smile: "That's not my problem!" The interviewer said "You're right!"

Another good comeback is "I guess that puts your band below my desired salary, then." and then say nothing else.

I ran into this once. I decided that I knew well enough what I was worth so when they asked what salary I was looking for, I gave a number.

They said, "oh that's outside the band for this position" so I replied, "that's unfortunate" and asked what we can do about it. There was a quick back and forth ("would you be willing to come down?" etc.), then I forget whether I suggested it or she did but I found out there was a more senior title with a higher salary band.

So that's how we solved the issue: after confirming with a VP, I got a fancier title and the salary I wanted, they got me in the right bucket on their comp grid.

The point is that you shouldn't walk away nor should you budge just because they say "that's outside the salary band. Maybe they're looking at the wrong band.

How bad do you want this job? If not bad enough, say this to the HR:

"I appreciate the offer but I strongly believe that my market value should get me $desired and if you cannot match that, I will not be able to move forward."

Hit send, close tab and go away from your emails for a while. If they truly value your skills since they already interviewed you, you will get the deal. If not, hey you didnt lose anything

This has worked for me many times.

Thanks. I've got some unique circumstances that do let me walk away, and I'm only asking for parity within the company.

There is far more demand than supply for developers right now. If there are other equivalent employers available to you, you don't have to do anything other than politely insist on market rate, and be fully prepared to walk away if they won't meet that.

The biggest leverage you can have in any negotiation is a willingness to walk away. If you negotiate from that perspective, you'll always be in a position of strength.

Decide if you are willing to walk away. If you passed the interviews with no missed questions and the company has already invested a lot of time into you, it would be idiotic of them to pass on you for a measly extra 15%. Think about it. They'd have to spend hours/days/weeks sourcing more candidates, who then would drop off at various stages of the interview funnel. This process is costly, wasting the time of recruiters, HR people, engineers, management etc etc.

There is a real dollar value on that time. On top of that, costs like healthcare and on-boarding you into the team would cost tens of thousands. 15% is nothing compared to the total cost of hiring and ramping up an employee - especially relative to the value that you would produce (which is presumably a multiple of your salary).

So decide if you're willing to walk away, decide what compensation you want, and be firm yet reasonable/friendly. If they don't budge, then simply walk away and I bet they will scramble to find a way to keep you. On the off chance that they don't, then don't feel bad; you did your best and you probably don't want to work somewhere that underpays you relative to the market anyway.

Being an HR professional I would never ask for pay stubs to confirm someone's wages. What you are being paid is really non of there business. I always ensure that our Total compensation model is comparable to the industry and will work with the candidate to get them something we both can agree on.

I honestly wouldn't want to work for a company like that.

Also if your looking at even considering a counteroffer form your current employer don't!!! If they value you as an employee they should not wait for you to resign to counter with more money.

This was a job with the state, so I thought the rules were rigid and payscales well defined. They ended up offering slightly above what I asked, which I should have realized that it meant they would have offered even more.

Please tell me you didn't share your previous salary with HR :)

Also 8 vs 10 years of experience is not a significant difference so that HR can BS you.

They are moving quick on you because you're a solid candidate, and they are trying to close quick.

Don't let HR BS you, once you get an offer, counter them at 10-20% of where you want to be, or simply give them a range that you feel comfortable with.

You are the scarce resource, and at an advantage. They've already budgeted for the position at 2 levels above yours, so they have the money. No reason you shouldn't be able to get it.

Be firm, don't accept their lowball.

I did share, despite being on HN. This was because my previous employers did verify my previous salaries, with one demanding a paystub prior to offer. I also met with HR prior to meeting the division head (he had to switch to last), so I was nervous about making a negative impression on site. It was a mistake, I know, but I thought I could just negotiate it back up since Glassdoor has made information public.

When HR brings up past salary as a justification for an existing offer, simply bring up that salaries are only a component of compensation and overall engagement. Tell them that you respect their viewpoint and understand whatever decision they come to, but you don't believe their offer matches your current market value.

> [...] give them a range that you feel comfortable with.

A side note: I don't get why providing a range is of any benefit, and I'm not talking about this particular situation. I wouldn't expect the other side to offer the top bracket if they know that I would accept the position for the lower bracket (I wouldn't specify the unacceptable lower bracket salary). What is in the setting that I don't see?

Giving them a range might not be the best idea, but if they are really pushing you for your salary, it's a good idea to just look up market value for your position and give them some sense of what you want.

Another approach would be to ask HR for what their range is, and you can confirm that it is within your expectations. Mind you, this is not the final negotiation, just a ballpark of where they can make you an offer. You should still be able to negotiate to the upper limit of the range once you're given an offer.

A range gives you some flexibility, whereas giving them your current salary, or just as single value, immediately anchors you to it.

> A range gives you some flexibility, whereas giving them [...] single value, immediately anchors you to it.

This is the part that I don't see: what flexibility? Except maybe for negotiating more paid holiday, but this seems to be specific to US, as the rest of Western world has guaranteed holiday by labour law.

Just wondering, how would you respond when being asked about your previous salary? I'm asking because I'm currently in negotiation with some companies, and being asked for your previous salary seems to be common practice.

I was pushed hard on this last time I was interviewing. We danced around a bit, with them requesting and me declining, until they said they must have my previous salary because it is their policy. So I responded that it was my policy not to disclose my salary. They couldn't argue with that, and I got the offer I was looking for (which I ended up turning down anyway, but that isn't the point.) This is in the UK, but I don't see why it wouldn't apply anywhere.

Thank you for your insight.

That just happened to me too (just accepted an offer for a new job). When they asked I politely told them I would not share that info, but I would tell them what range I'm looking for. It worked out fine.

"I'm not comfortable sharing my current salary. I look forward to this opportunity to add value to your team, and I want it to be a big step forward for me in terms of both responsibility and compensation."

If pressed on current salary:

"I'm not comfortable sharing proprietary information about how my current employer pays people."

If pressed on desired salary:

"I don't have a specific number in mind, and I look forward to hearing what you suggest since you know much better than I do what value someone with my skill set and experience will bring to your team."

I found this advice on negotiating to be most helpful:

1. Always stay polite. Getting emotional works against you in most cases.

2. Don't give ultimatums. Saying "I want this and this" is fine - don't add "or else...".

3. In your current situation, you have lost some negotiating leverage (your previous salary, your experience) but it's not unsalvageable. Simply bring them up and counter them yourself:

* Your previous salary is not relevant - only what you want to accept now. HR has a desire to lowball you so you should counter with a higher-than-market request.

* Your experience is not an issue. If they want you for the job then you are qualified for the salary that job entails.

4. Use the fact that you are _already_ giving them something by accepting an offer one level below! Make this a big deal and ask for compensation for doing a higher level job.

5. Pick a price that is 10% above market value and have a list of reasons you want it (new house, car, ...). Do not be afraid to stick to your ask. After all, they need you to do the job just as much as you need their job.

6. When picking a number do not pick a round number (numbers like 30% sound like you have not given it much thought. Numbers like 101,300/- sound like you have figured out your finances and have a good reason for your ask).

7. Be patient and remember you both want something out of this.

Good luck!

Edit: The Lightning Guide to Software Resumes has a short section on negotiating that is a good summary. A better book is "Never split the difference" by Chris Voss which is, I think, the best book on the subject.

If it's in the bay area I'd say just give your number, they'll do something. An offer is an offer... It's like buying a car, they give their offer and you give yours until it works out. I've done it so many times.

Though, the base salary is the hardest thing to negotiate. A lot of companies won't change that number no matter how good you are, because they try to maintain their employees within the same bracket and avoid any frictions between people. Simply by asking I got double sign-on, more RSU's, etc. But from experience if it's not a google or one of the big 5, then they won't bump up the base salary. So you should target sign-on and RSU's/stock/options.

I'd recommend being very polite, but direct with the recruiter.

"I appreciate your generous offer and would love to join the team! The role is exciting and the team is fantastic. The current offer feels like it comes in a bit under market both in terms of title and compensation.

I am ready to accept an offer at the initial level at a starting salary of <$$$$>. I totally understand if this doesn't work for the broader team, but I want to make sure our partnership starts off in alignment to ensure a mutually beneficial long-term relationship."

Written on my mobile, so it's a VERY rough draft, but something like that.

Don't let people under pay you, but also be realistic w/ your talent level.

Update: I just sent my proposal in, with salary and market calculations along with a request to keep the higher title.

Ironically, they gave me their 10-15% formula as a lowball tactic, but once I did the calculations this way it came out slightly higher than market.

This was because of differences in benefits and net savings from cost of living.

I guess the question is now, how can I ask for higher than market? I'm not sure if I can. I may be a rare candidate that fit all their checkboxes and they need to move quickly, but this is a good step for me too.

I don't mean this in a disrespectful way but I think you are too hung up on market vs non-market. Just decide what is a good number for you to quit your current job and ask for that . If you get it, take it. If not, move on. Don't make it too difficult for you.

You are right, and I felt much better after calculating the exact number I needed and left it with them.

> 1. How should I feel about being brought in one level lower strictly because of years of experience on paper? If there were doubts about my ability, they certainly didn't test harder questions during the interview.

Personally, I would not have felt too great about this. Are you really excited about this new job or are you switching just for the raise? The fact that they even have a hierarchy that's 3 level deep, counted in number of years and all that after a supposedly 8 year cut off just doesn't seem right. I think the HR is just trying to get you for the lowest offer they think you will find acceptable, not for what they think you ought to deserve.

About the response time don't sweat it. If they really want you, they'll be willing to hash out the details. Hiring for a single position can take 3 months or more, it's a lot of wasted effort if a company gets to the point of making an offer and having candidates decline.

Now, as far as how you should negotiate is concerned, I'm sorry, I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all solution to that.

Hope this was helpful.

Thanks, I'm okay with a hierarchy... it's pretty standard for engineers isn't it? The number of years is a bit old school, true.

If I may, and this is a general consideration, not necessarily applying to this specific case, there is often a "mislabeling" of seniority as "experience".

They are not the same thing.

Now explaining that to a HR might be an issue, but while it is clear that two years are different from ten, eight years in a given role/position in a "dynamic" firm - possibly a small one where you have to deal with a multitude of different problems - might be equivalent (or at least it is equivalent in my mind) to fifteen or more years in a big firm/highly structured multinational where the same role/position revolves around doing only what is on the paper.

Regarding years of experience this quote from Code Complete book could be useful "If you have not learned the language/framework in 1-2 years, more years won't help you" :)

Go up. If they are offering under market then consider pushing for higher than your baseline/benchmark. You only get one chance to start a new job and you don't want to be pissed off when you do. Tell them that anything less than X will be demotivational. If they are being unreasonable then so should you. And just be hardline about the level.

I think it's important to feel good about your compensation when starting a new job. You don't want it hanging around in the back of your mind. It might eat you up mentally.

I would ask for fair market value in order to avoid this possibility.

The other thing to consider... don't only negotiate for money part of the salary. Think of vacation time, and other perks as well.

Thanks, I might try to get the title back after the final number is done.

Don't address one item and then move to another. Be upfront about all of your concerns at once. If I moved up on salary and then had a prospect re-counter on title, I'd pull the offer.

Thanks for your advice. I sent my concerns before receiving an offer letter now. Before I was hoping to get a first number from them, but it would definitely cause them more bureaucratic resistance to change offers.