Comment by mindcrime | Hacker News Reader

Comment by mindcrime | Hacker News Reader

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Being religious or not has nothing to do with believing that effort is the dominant factor affecting success. I'm an atheist who also believes that effort reigns supreme. That doesn't mean that I don't believe that what we call "bad luck" can't come along and derail you, but I firmly believe - based on my own experience - that you "make your own luck" through effort and the decisions you make.

I grew in dirt-poor in white-trash / redneck-ville rural NC, but I've managed to work my way into a pretty good career in software development, living in a nice neighborhood in Chapel Hill. A lot of my high-school peers are still living in bumfuck, doing drugs, working fast-food, whatever. Was I just "luckier" then them? I don't think so. I think the primary factor is that I was more ambitious, harder working, and made better decisions. And I've had much "luck" along the way... man, it was minor and hard to notice. Because from my subjective perspective, I've busted my balls for everything I managed to achieve.

I still remember working midnight shift waxing floors for a grocery store, leaving work at 6:30am, heading to an 8:00am class (Discrete Math of all things!), suffering through 3 hours of classes, then going and crashing on a couch in the library for an hour or so, then grabbing lunch, hitting my 1:00pm class, then driving the hour home from school, to fall alseep, wake up, and go back to work at 10:00. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Some people will suffer through that shit, some won't. I don't see a whole lot of luck in the equation.

You're an atheist, but you somehow believe that the good guys mostly win in the end. I call this religious, no insult intended, I'm speaking of a turn of spirit, not of actual religion. I think that the fundamental philosophical and political dissent lies there, that the irreconcilable point is that: either you think that the world is totally unjust, may crush you even if you're hard working, nice, polite, and let Pol Pot die peacefully in his bed, or you don't.

You want to believe, I dare say, maybe because of all the hard shit you had to go through. But there is somewhere in Aleppo or elsewhere someone who went through all the same hardship as you, and worked hard, and was nice and all, but who died miserably after having being tortured by jihadists or whatever and having seen his whole family beheaded. In fact, there are millions upon millions of people that did everything right but were unlucky to be born in Uganda or Syria or Libya or Bangladesh, and got fucked in the end, like most of the thousands who were drowned in the Mediterranean last year. Luck trumps merit. That's the whole point of the original article.

I agree with you if youre saying we should acknowledge that bad luck can trump effort, but i don't agree this is a healthy attitude to carry over in your day to day life. Effort is something I can control. Could I fail no matter how much i try? Yes absolutely. Ask Hillary. But you won't know until you try.

Well I was just trying to set some contrast on the fundamental difference of points of view from the first comment I answered to.

I see that argument as just sophistry - redefining "luck" to fit a particular worldview and set of circumstances. shrug

Define "world". Define "good guy".

Is it inconsistent to believe that the world is totally unjust and, yet, also believe that individuals who put forth more effort are generally more successful? I think not.

The world itself may be totally unjust; physics shows no partiality for individuals who possess a greater "morality" or work ethic. However, we do not only live within the world. We also live within various frameworks, such as a culture, society, company, etc. These frameworks are not governed merely by physics, but by other humans. And these other humans do, almost by definition, show partiality. Therefore, I argue, that you can increase your chances for success through your own actions. This is not inconsistent with claiming Pol Pot and torturous jihadists "won"; they could have simply assessed their situation and, by their own effort, maximized their chances for success.

What about all the people that work hard but are not successful? I know people that no matter how hard they try they won't be software developers (not that this is the only well paying job). They do all those things you are talking about but they have to pick much less lucrative work. There is no big promise of high paying job. Those people are essentially being rewarded less for the same effort no? One of my close friends is in this position. He is working towards being a small business owner. He puts in so much more effort than I do. There is no doubt he'll eventually make it... but I still will get paid more because my skill-set is currently in much higher demand.

That's great. I'm genuinely happy for you that you got out of rural NC, and I think your work ethic is to be commended greatly.

You worked hard, bettered your situation.

I still want to live in an America where no one needs to work that hard to have a comfortable life. Not luxurious, but comfortable. Anyone willing to put in 40 hours of work a week, they should be able to afford shelter in their region, have nice things every once in a while, have meat on the table regularly, etc.

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