The calorie is a calorie argument is old and dumb. It ignores insulin which is a BIG deal. It also ignores that high blood sugar can cause a temporary endorphin rush. Ever hear anyone talk about a "protein high" or "fat high"?
The calorie is a calorie argument is old and dumb. It ignores insulin which is a BIG deal. It also ignores that high blood sugar can cause a temporary endorphin rush. Ever hear anyone talk about a "protein high" or "fat high"?
I agree with you - but saying a calorie is a calorie makes people feel like they are gifted physicists preaching to people that live in the dark ages.
Nutrition's become a bit of a religious/political issue.
https://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Firmicutes_and_Obes...
The article didn't tread much into the satiety effect: while sugar- and carb-laden foods generally leave you wanting more, it's difficult to overeat naturally fatty things like bacon, cream, or eggs. Until just now, these foods have been frowned upon so hard that few people think of combining them with veggies to create tasty, affordable, satisfying, and nutritious meals.
Metabolism doesn't happen in the gut, but in the cells and mostly in the mitochondria. It is controlled by the hypothalamus, which keeps your body at the same temperature, as this is the bulk of what food energy is used for.
It just makes sense if you believe that studies are biased. It seems like trust in authorities (in this case to determine dietetic recommendations) would be a common factor with religious/political differences between persons.
Edit: or you could say that some people seems to trust facts more, other ones trust persons more.
Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Has the concept been abolished in the last decade?
Another tidbit in evidence of CIAC holding true is that 99.9% of people would lose weight if they cut their meal sizes in the same proportion (let's say by 20%).
They wouldn't lose equal amounts, but they would all lose weight.
The magic trick is being able to measure your weight for the first week or two and then keep the same habits until the goal is reached. No fancy apps or diets or nutritionists or whatever required. So a calorie is a calorie.
Also, I wouldn't count 10 lbs over 3 month proof that a calorie is a calorie. Actually, I think it proves the opposite. A person who is 30+ lbs over weight should drop 10lbs in around two weeks with a 500 calorie deficit per day. (Generally considered the max safe range for sustained weight loss)
I'd really be curious to how much you would lose if you cut the sugar completely.
For an "average" person they store 400g of glycogen in their muscles and 100g of glycogen in their liver. In this form, it is bound to 3-4 times as much water. So 500 * 3.5 is 2250g = 5 pounds just from this depletion.
As far as fat burning, a pound of fat has about 3500 calories. A 500 per day deficit will lead to 1 pound of weight loss. However, fat is also bound to water in a roughly 1:1 ratio so you'll also lose a pound of water too. So call this 2 pounds for the second week.
Add in all the weight in your digestive system over that two week period and you'll be ~10 pounds or more in two weeks. Again this assumes a person that is 30+ pounds overweight and has full glycogen stores.
As an interesting sidenote: fat people have relatively a lot less water in their fat tissue than lean people.
You can also think about the fact that when you drop triglycerides in water, it will not solute at all. Also, human body creates fatty membranes (cell walls) to absolutely _prevent_ the influx / efflux of water.
Overweight from start was minimal (4, maybe 5 kgs over BMI 25) but I got rid of the "gut" that was starting to form and it was extremely successful. I actually have no idea what the calorie deficiency was: I just ballparked it for the first two weeks and then kept that while measuring my weight every morning. I'd say it's about 600-700 max with the weekends reserved for no fat-loss.
It certainly helps (in many ways) to e.g. increase protein in leue of sugar, but that you will certainly ly lose weight if calories burned > calories consumed.
I don't know about the margins of food, but I consider preparing food from the basic ingredients somewhat time-wasting and costly (when I actually order or buy and prepare them myself). As they can have fine nutritional values, I don't think processed foods can be generalized to be bad per se.
In the short term, they'd absolutely lose weight. After a certain point (probably about six weeks), their basal metabolic rate will drop though, in adaptation to the new situation where their body adapts to living off a lowered caloric intake. Then the weight loss will plateau, or at least significantly slow down, while any deviation from the diet would generally result in a sharp uptake in fat storage (because now the metabolism is significantly slower and more greedy)
4 of my buddies are doing a weight-loss challenge ahead of this spring's local marathon. They're each losing about 10-12 pounds over the month of January.
3 of them kept their calorie intakes roughly the same but changed their macros to favor protein and fat (and no changes to their exercise regimes). All 3 have already reached their goal without significant loss of muscle mass. One guy switch to the keto diet for January (<25g carbs/day), and is at 16 pounds lost as of last night. The 4th guy lowered his caloric intake but maintained his carb-heavy diet. He's lost 4 pounds, and he's struggling with hunger and trying to lose more weight.
You'll definitely still lose weight if you calories consumed < calories burned. But you'll lose more fat if those calories are consumed in the proper ratios. Increasing protein consumption while at a caloric deficit minimizes muscle loss, especially when combined with (even minimal) weight training.
Moreover, losing 4 kgs or more of fat in a month increases the risk for cardiovascular disease: the blood cholesterol levels of the subjects may rise to unhealthy levels. Some are resistant to high cholesterol, but statistically it's a risk.
Also, some people up their carb intake a little before their workout, so it'll burn off and they'll still be in keto afterwards while not risking performance loss.
Finally, you don't double your protein intake on keto, you replace your carb intake with fat, so you wouldn't be at 2g/kg/day danger levels you're suggesting if you're doing the diet properly.
This is all I was really trying to emphasize. When it comes time to burn energy, calories are the same, but this isn't true when eating.
High sugar affects insulin and other things that may it hard for people to stick with it. Eating meals high in fat provides higher satiety (you feel full longer). Eating vegetables high in fiber fills your stomach with large mass but low sugar so you'll feel full longer while that breaks down.
Caloric restriction seems to fail large groups of people to the point where short-term weight loss that is followed by respective gain (and more) has its own Wikipedia page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yo-yo_effect
Many people who try caloric restriction suffer from pangs of hunger, general weakness, brain fog, lack of energy, daytime sleepiness, loss of mental clarity and focus, etc. Diets based strictly on calorie restrictions are not sustainable for their specific age+gender+body type combo, but might be effective for yours.
Humans aren't ideal furnaces and food/drink energy content isn't just its temperature output when burnt in a furnace.
It's maybe fine that that's our current best approximation, but seeing it as anything more than a seriously crazy, wild eyed approximation is not good math or science.
How many people don't agree with this ? our body is full of variables that can impede or accelerate processes.
I could eat a nutella jar and not weight a gram, some people almost get fat at the sight of sweets.
Yes we are. We get all our energy from oxidizing reduced carbon. The chemical equation is exactly the same and thus the energy produced must be as well. Burning a gram of sugar will yield 4 calories of heat, whether in a furnace or in a mitochondrion.
And because the waste heat is useful in keeping us warm, it's a 100% efficient process.
The sugar, fats or protein you ingest cannot simply stay in your body, and it's not leaving you either (feces has no nutritional value and unless you have diabetes your urine won't be sweet either). So if your body is already at the right temperature, it is going to be stored as fat. There is simply no other way for it to go!
There is no significant interperson difference in metabolisms. Any difference would raise your body temperature, which is what banned dieting aids used to do (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,4-Dinitrophenol)
Your comparison to phlogiston is frankly insulting. As a physicist, I'm not too fond of the practices in nutrition either, but this is just basic biochemistry that has been known for decades.
That's why I like the comparison: it's designed to be insulting to anyone that has studied science. It's also a pretty good summary, I feel, of the state of nutrition "science". Key foundational figures of nutrition "science", especially in America, were fellows like Mr. Kellogg that very much were phlogiston-based snake oil salesmen, and we still use a lot of the same methods to view nutrition, just slightly updated.
So in your analysis we have a black box system where the body is a machine (which you claim to be highly efficient) whose inputs are only food and outputs are merely heat, feces, urine, and stored fat. Looking at even just the Wikipedia page on Biochemistry [1], and assuming I have no further training on this subject, this analysis seems to me to be such a gross oversimplification of a lot of very complex processes.
Can you honestly tell me, as a person of physics, that this doesn't look like the biochemical equivalent of the "spherical cow fallacy"? Assume the body is a furnace / assume the cow is spherical.
If we want to cherry pick simplifying assumptions, allow me to bring up the toroidal simplification of the human body. The toroidal simplification suggests that the human body can be simplified to a donut: the gastrointestinal tract being the "hole" in the donut. This assumption is equally "silly" to the "spherical cow", but I think is also a useful simplifying assumption to point out some immediate holes in bare CICO "furnace" assumption. From the toroidal point of view, the GI microbiome is "outside" the body, it's complex signals and hormone productions and biochemical processes are definitely inputs into the body. That brings up the question of how much input the microbiome on the epidermis/skin may input/output, and the obvious other factors that your simplified model above fails to account for outputs such as sweat and exhalation...
Yes, calories can be a useful approximation model, but I have a hard time believing its the best possible approximation model science can build for us.
This is barely nutrition, this is just basic thermodynamics. Again, because energy is a state function, no assumptions need to be made about the efficiency of any of the intermediate processes or about how the muscles/mitochondria/liver/kidneys/... work, energy conservation keeps us from having to mess with that.
The reason this analysis is so useful is because we're an endothermic species. The core of all of our bodies are at pretty much the same temperature. And as anyone who's had to pay a heating bill knows, heat isn't cheap. In fact, the bulk of our food energy is expended on keeping us warm. This is why there are no such things as slow or fast metabolism. If your metabolism were too slow to burn your resting energy expenditure in 24 hours, you'd die of undercooling. If your metabolism were significantly faster than normal, you'd die of overheating (or at least you'd feel significantly warm to the touch, be constantly sweating/flushed). In fact, a person's resting metabolic rate can be accurately predicted from their body composition [0], and doesn't differ between age or gender, as would be expected. This puts a pretty high lower limit on one's energy expenditure, absolutely nobody can maintain their weight on, say, 600 calories per day. You simply can't keep a 70 kg sack of mostly water at the right temperature with that energy budget, not with how badly isolated we are.
Even if it does seem oversimplified, it's no spherical cow. The energy balance is exact, because of basic physics and biochemistry: we have only one way of generating energy (oxidizing reduced carbon), only one way of storing energy for the long term (long chains of reduced carbon), no energy is lost (because heat generation is a 100% efficient process) and our digestion is very efficient (not feces, urine nor sweat contain significant amounts of carbohydrates, lipids, protein or any other high-energy compound). It's also useful because we have an unflexible lower limit to the amount of energy we expend in a day because of the way our bodies work. The wiggle-room on the previous assumptions only serves to make calories-in smaller (e.g. malabsorption) or calories-out larger (e.g. exercise), and thus would only make it easier to lose weight.
I won't deny the microbiome is important. There is a probably a correlation between gut biome and obesity. But that can only because it influences things like satiety or mood, because none of those bacteria seem to change the eventual energy equation, nor do they change how much heat you need to produce to keep warm or energy expended when lifting a weight. They're relevant because willpower is a finite resource, but they don't change the fact that any diet will in some sense need to consist of eating less calories than you burn in a day
Which is a simplifying assumption that I'm having trouble with here. "Energy balance" does not directly correlate with mass. Yes, there are a lot of indirect relationships and I appreciate you expanding upon them, but in the supposed logic chain of balance energy and thus balance mass, I think there are too many simplifying assumptions that black box the variety and depth of biochemical processes without factoring for them or building an error model for them. There is nothing wrong with using a black box model for a first order estimation/approximation, knowing your error bars and limitations and what next steps you would need to get more accurate data. I think there is something wrong with putting blinders on and pretending that your black box model is the entirety of the facts and can contain no error.
You mention enthalpy, but roughly ignore the entirety of entropy in the equation; you are essentially handwaving it as an unimportant. I think it's lack in the model is telling. (There are multiple reasons the SI switched from calories to Joules as the measure of energy, and phlogiston-influenced thermodynamic baggage is part of that.)
« we have only one way of generating energy (oxidizing reduced carbon) »
We absolutely have anaerobic energy processes at work in our bodies every day. Muscle tissues are an example. The long tail variety of microorganism in our microbiome certainly includes plenty of other examples, our old friend yeast being a prime example.
I could pick apart the other incorrect assumptions from your oversimplifying model, but this one alone is telling enough.
« They're relevant because willpower is a finite resource »
Here's the real problem: there is no direct correlation between mass and "willpower". Bringing up willpower here is slippery slope attempt to make a connection between weight and morality that is unjust at best. That is where the "calories in, calories out" rhetoric absolutely swerves to become more religious revival (the Protestant work ethic applied to food and exercise) than anything resembling science. Teach the controversy.
Entropy is irrelevant and I can't explain why if I don't know why you think it is (possible retorts: we don't use heat engines to perform work, the bulk of our food energy goes to heat and producing heat is always 100% efficient, the reaction rates are not dependent on Gibbs energy because of enzymes etc..).
I never said my black box model is completely accurate. It would be if we had all the parameters, but we don't. The calories-in part is 99% accurate and it helps that it's an upper limit. The calories-out part is harder to predict, but one can get close enough when considering just the basal metabolic rate necessary for survival, that even mechanically ventilated people need to live.
> We absolutely have anaerobic energy processes at work in our bodies every day. Muscle tissues are an example. The long tail variety of microorganism in our microbiome certainly includes plenty of other examples, our old friend yeast being a prime example.
First of all, I explicitly mentioned exercise as one of caveats. But unless you're a top athlete, it's a pretty small part of the energy balance anyways, and on my usual day my muscles are rarely starved of oxygen. And it still doesn't matter because it doesn't change the energy equation! The rest product of anaerobic fermentation in our body is a relatively high energy compound called lactate. We don't expel most of it, so it's not part of calories-out. It gets converted back into glucose and stays part of our mass. Same with the anaerobic microbiome. They don't make our feces more nutritious and they don't perform useful work (in the physics sense), so either they make heat or they expel high energy compounds that we then absorb and metabolize as part of calories-in.
I think it's unfair for you to accuse me of having blinders on. I don't pretend to know everything about the biochemistry of the human body. But I do know the constraints physics puts on it. I'm lucky that our body just so happens to work in a way that I can quite confidently state these things because of a few key assumptions that allow me to abstract over it using basic physics. I'm more than willing to revise my ideas, but you or someone else will first have to give strong facts which is not what I've seen here. One would also have to explain why caloric restriction works perfectly fine in a controlled environment (as many, many articles prove). Or simply explain how with a reduced caloric intake, one could supposedly stay alive without losing mass. Heck, as much as I rue anecdotal evidence, you can try it yourself.
> Here's the real problem: there is no direct correlation between mass and "willpower". Bringing up willpower here is slippery slope attempt to make a connection between weight and morality that is unjust at best. That is where the "calories in, calories out" rhetoric absolutely swerves to become more religious revival (the Protestant work ethic applied to food and exercise) than anything resembling science. Teach the controversy.
Good thing I'm Catholic then, and not even American. Diet is nothing but willpower. I won't pretend it's easy. Life is already hard and dieting takes a long time of fighting a basic instinct. But even if you don't believe in "calories-in, calories-out" (which I still don't think is justified), everyone believes in conservation of mass. If you eat less, you'll lose weight: http://blog.ifac-control.org/2016/12/05/closed-loop-weight-c...
I don't make any moral judgments about this, as I rarely do: I could never pretend to know another person's struggle. I don't think the recent obesity epidemic is a sudden widespread moral failure, but rather an change in environment that had an unexpected effect. But I also don't like ungrounded excuses, nor how quite a few of the comments on this page don't provide any evidence for quite extraordinary claims.
Also, more anecdotally, how many people do you know who get hangry from low blood sugar? How many people eat when they are sad to feel better?
A medical condition means I can get hypoglycemic, and when I do I can become completely irrational and very aggressive. Also, a drop in blood sugar can signal hunger.
A substance A can be a net promoter of both a compound B and a compound C, even if the compound B suppresses C, provided that the direct promotion of A on C is greater than the direct suppression of B on C per the changed in B.
In other words, when I ignite a pile of wood(A), the wood releases (among other things) both water(B) and smoke(C). Now, independently high amounts of water will tend to put out smoke, but in these quantities much more smoke is released than the water required to put it out.
I don't have a source on how much endorphins sugar releases but I would imagine it's an analogous case. In fact, things like this are really common in the human body because if the half lives of action are different, they can help return the body to homeostasis. In this case, I hypothesize that the endorphin effect on insulin could serve to reduce insulin to more normal levels in the blood-stream after the initial spike due to sugar intake.
It is physically impossible not to. You could be fed a drip of pure sugar and you will lose weight as long as you receive fewer calories that you burn.
Side note: "as long as you receive fewer calories that you burn" ignores the fact that how much you burn can change.
If you're managing satiety and glycemic index and ignoring calorie intake, you're not going to manage weight well. These are all tools in managing calorie inputs, not replacements for it.
Here's a blog post breaking down a recent paper on the topic: http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.co.uk/2016/03/boiled-mash...
So saying there is some truth to that is extremely snarky and dismissive.
Humans are also not known for keeping track of how fast they run to millisecond precision but people do it to achieve a goal.
If your goal is to lose weight, track calories to do it. I can lose weight on demand eating nothing but junk but keeping track of how much of it I'm eating.
No, not even if you keep your exercise regimen constant. The body is a complicated self-regulating feedback control system. It's not even surprising for it to reduce the burn rate when the input gets leaner.
"The results of our study challenge the notion that a calorie is a calorie from a metabolic perspective. During isocaloric feeding ... total energy expenditure differed by approximately 300 kcal/d between very-low-carb and low-fat diets, an effect corresponding with the amount of energy typically expended in 1 hour of moderate-intensity physical activity."
"In conclusion, our study demonstrates that commonly consumed diets can affect metabolism and components of the metabolic syndrome in markedly different ways during weight-loss maintenance, independent of energy content. The low-fat diet produced changes in energy expenditure and serum leptin42- 44 that would predict weight regain. In addition, this conventionally recommended diet had unfavorable effects on most of the metabolic syndrome components studied herein."
Too simplistic? Okay, try drastically increasing or decreasing your salt intake and keep all other factors the same - you'll see a weight change from water retention.
Again too simplistic? Okay, try substituting 500 calories a standard diet with 500 calories of celery. Note that even keeping all other factors constant, you lose more weight with the celery.
[1] Because the sugar replacements are artificial 'plastics' that apparently don't burn when set on fire; how can that possibly be healthy?