Hacker News Reader

Comment by and0 | Hacker News Reader

Off-topic but.. "they"? Manning isn't a group of people. Just say "she", it's really easy.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13421564 and marked it off-topic.

I agree. I would like to see people addressed by the pronoun that they prefer. For most people, their presentation gives a strong enough suggestion that I would generally use the "expected" pronouns, for their apparent presentation.

In the absence of a preference (or with people who have presented ambiguity) and no apparent expected default, I tend to use "they" (as it's as neutral a pronoun as I know how to use).

In the case of Chelsea, she has demonstrated a clear preference [1], so we should all be using the pronouns that she has chosen.

[1] http://www.glaad.org/blog/chelsea-mannings-name-and-pronouns...

Pronouns are interesting. I have transgender friends who prefer "they". I like to use it as a gender-neutral pronoun when I can get away with it, and hope that usage becomes more acceptable as time passes.

Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they) covers this topic quite well.

I don't know what Chelsea Manning's pronoun preferences are, but I have plenty of friends who prefer "they," which also happens to be the gender-neutral singular pronoun in English.

For example: "Someone came by asking for me earlier? Did they give you a name?"

Many people who do not identify as male or female prefer "they."

That's a valid point, but if you don't know enough about Chelsea Manning's recent history or prison sentence to know her preferred pronoun (or even read the article where it's made very clear) why even comment?

The comment was on-topic and interesting. That's two reasons I can think of.

Also, this is not a new story, so frankly it's easy to have relevant opinions on the topic while perhaps just doing a skim of the story.

You've assumed the person using "they" did know enough about Chelsea Manning's recent history and chose to use they as some kind of statement.

You should probably be talking the the person who called her "guy", or the person who said she was forced to change gender as a punishment, (both in this thread) rather than the person who politely used "they" because they weren't sure whether to apply she to the time she was identified as male.

Some of my trans/genderqueer friends go through long periods wherein they change their preferred pronouns, so when I don't know someone personally I try use "they" whenever I can in deference to the complexity of trans/queer experiences. My husband identifies as a man, but sometimes prefers to be referred to as "they," for example in all professional contexts. (They're an artist).

Since I don't know Chelsea personally, and because they're also in what must be a deeply traumatic and confusing situation, replete with pressure to conform to newly acceptable narratives of transition like "man becomes woman," I think I instinctively wanted to use "they" in acknowledgment that we probably can't know for sure what would make them comfortable and happy from our present vantage, news reports aside. If I for some reason meet them one day, I'll be sure to confirm with them what they prefer.

Chelsea has publicly identified the preferred pronouns as "she/her/hers". [1]

[1] http://www.glaad.org/blog/chelsea-mannings-name-and-pronouns...

So what? You can't expect people to know that, this whole preferred pronoun issue is nonsense; you do not have a right to tell other people which words they should use.

  You can't expect people to know that

I shared the link, so that people who weren't aware of Chelsea's preferred pronouns, could learn which pronouns she preferred.

  this whole preferred pronoun issue is nonsense;
  you do not have a right to tell other people which words they should use.

You're right to say that in general, I cannot control the words that people use, about me, or about others.

But I do respect the choices that people make. If someone would prefer that I refer to them as "she" or "her", or "him" or "he", I will use that pronoun. And I would question: why would someone use an alternative pronoun, knowing that the person would prefer an alternative? Why would anyone choose to knowingly attack and hurt someone, purely for sake of labeling them with a pronoun that the person has identified as inappropriate?

When someone has identified their preferred pronouns, it is entirely appropriate to use those pronouns, and it is inappropriate - even abusive - to deliberately choose to use an incorrect pronoun. I do state "deliberately choose to use", because there will inevitably be people who mistakenly use an incorrect pronoun, for lack of knowledge, but people who are aware of the correct pronouns and deliberately choose an incorrect pronoun are conducting a bullying, abusive attack, and should be stopped.

Yes. I would add that, at least in present cultural conditions, most people who are not cisgendered men or women are not treated well, are chronically misunderstood, and experience traumatic alienation from their surrounding culture, and even violence. Generally speaking we're not yet able to protect non-cis people nearly as well as we should. So in addition to the parent's clear and solid advice, please have some empathy. Respecting a person's wishes about referring to their identity can go a long way toward making them feel safe, and refusing to do so can add to a tremendous burden of pain.

> And I would question: why would someone use an alternative pronoun, knowing that the person would prefer an alternative?

The answer is quite simple, we don't always keep track of other people's preferences even when we've been told them.

> Why would anyone choose to knowingly attack and hurt someone, purely for sake of labeling them with a pronoun that the person has identified as inappropriate?

Again, just because you had a piece of information, doesn't mean it immediately comes forth in your mind at the necessary time. It's hard enough remembering the preferences of your friends, let alone public figures who you've never met. No one here likely personally knows Manning, to expect people to remember the preferences of public figures they don't know is expecting too much.

> When someone has identified their preferred pronouns, it is entirely appropriate to use those pronouns, and it is inappropriate - even abusive - to deliberately choose to use an incorrect pronoun.

No, it is not. You are placing an unjustified exception on another persons memory of your preferences, this is never appropriate.

> I do state "deliberately choose to use", because there will inevitably be people who mistakenly use an incorrect pronoun, for lack of knowledge, but people who are aware of the correct pronouns and deliberately choose an incorrect pronoun are conducting a bullying, abusive attack, and should be stopped.

This is a false dichotomy that presumes perfect memory; just because you've been told something doesn't mean you're deliberately ignoring that information when you later use the incorrect pronoun. Some people don't know, but knowing doesn't mean you deliberately intended insult when you still use it wrong. We all know lots of things that don't come to us in the necessary moments, brains aren't computers, they're fuzzy.

If your ability to cope depends on another persons choice of vocabulary, you're depending on the wrong things.

Anyone who claims to be offended by "they" is someone playing victim, they're looking for reasons to be insulted. They/them is always appropriate in all cases for all genders, it's how we avoid having to remember everyone's personal preferences.

They == people in govt with access to this info.

The word "they" has more than one meaning. One of those is for a person of indeterminate or unknown gender.

For example I can and routinely do say things like "If that person wishes to do XYZ, then they must first do ABCD"

Yes, but Ms. Manning's gender is neither indeterminate nor unknown. Ms. Manning is a woman, and she has publicly stated that her pronouns are she/her. This is not difficult information to find.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com