HTC Sues Apple for Patent Infringement | Hacker News Reader

HTC Sues Apple for Patent Infringement

htc.com

88 pointsmikeknoop52 comments

I'm glad HTC is doing this. Since the iPhone came out, Apple has developed this smug godlike aura and it's time that someone stood up against them.

You realize it's just the patent system doing what it normally does, right?

A sues B, generally to achieve some tangentially-related goal. Then B counter-sues A, to try to shore up their position in the inevitable settlement and cross-licensing deal. All of this, regardless of the relative merits or correct-ness of either side.

About the only time these things diverge from the normal path, is when one side is suing to essentially put another out of business. And that's hardly the case here.

From our position it's as irrational to say HTC is "standing up" to Apple bullying as to say Apple is standing up to Google/HTC "ripping off" their technology.

> About the only time these things diverge from the normal path, is when one side is suing to essentially put another out of business. And that's hardly the case here.

I'm not so sure about this. By going after the biggest Android manufacturer, youngest and smallest major smartphone manufacturer and a foreign company, It sort of seems that Apple does want to put HTC out of business, at least in this field.

Is HTC the biggest Android manufacturer? In the US I think Motorola has sold more phones with Android than anyone else.

I'm guessing Apple didn't sue Motorola because Motorola probably has a patent portfolio in the mobile phone space that is quite scary.

Definitely Motorola has a more formidable patent portfolio but HTC has been selling Android phones way before Motorola.

HTC is behind the G1, MyTouch, Sprint Hero, Droid Eris, Nexus One. Moto has Droid and Cliq, and now backflip but only Droid has much traction.

Regardless symbolically HTC is also more symbolically representative of Android, they both produced the first Android phone and Google's own Nexus One. To me it seems like Apple is taking a jab at Android more so than HTC.

You can't look at the HTC suit without looking at it in the context of the Nokia suits. I doubt Apple has any interest in putting HTC out of business, but more likely this is a case of Apple trying to firm up its patent portfolio quickly to make the Nokia suits easier to manage.

Maybe Apple just wanted to see what they would reply with? How they would react.

Apple does have all these patents, though not as substantive as Nokia, from what I have read they mostly seem to be software.

The only stupid way this would go is if some court did actually ban the import of a HTC/Nokia/Apple device. More likely, cross-licensing agreement between all parties involved, with Apple having to pay Nokia for the priveledge. I believe HTC already does this.

> The only stupid way this would go is if some court did actually ban the import of a HTC/Nokia/Apple device

I think that would be fun to watch

I cannot see how HTC qualifies as youngest smart phone manufacturer (and I'm not sure about the smallest part either). HTC designs and manufactures PDAs and smart phones for at least 12 years (Compaq iPaq 3600, probably first really sucessful Windows Mobile PDA was designed and manufactured by HTC). But only recently they started to market their products directly.

"quietly brilliant" may have something to do with this :)

I'm not as glad. HTC develops a compelling product that can 'win' on its on merits. This kind of patent action only serves to reinforce the kind of patent trolling done by, IMHO, companies who can't compete on product merit alone.

Yes, yes, I know there are compelling reasons why HTC must protect their patents if they are applicable.

>Yes, yes, I know there are compelling reasons why HTC must protect their patents if they are applicable.

I'd think the main compelling reason is that Apple has already sued them.

Gizmodo (http://gizmodo.com/5537316) is claiming they've seen the 5 patents which HTC is allegedly suing with.

"Two are related to power management, two are over personalized phone dialers, and one's over a telephone dialer with easy access memory—pretty menial stuff, compared to everything Apple is slamming HTC with."

Does it matter how menial the patent claims are? If Apple is indeed infringing, then HTC has the choice to offer a license at whatever cost they want, do they not?

HTC is in the same boat. If HTC is found to have violated any of Apple's patents, Apply too can slam HTC for licensing fees or whatever else.

i've been involved in a few of these... it matters because ultimately it could come down to a jury trial and then a judge's decision regarding damages. how 'big' the claims are matters to the real people making the decisions in the courtroom. they're not going to award billions of dollars of damages for a minor claim, for instance, and claims can sometimes be worked around, so often the damage done to the infringed party is what's at stake, plus penalties. (admittedly, this is an oversimplification)

i've sat in a room full of people discussing these issues ad nauseam and i can tell you with 100% confidence that this is like a poker game, the size of the chip stack affects the confidence, timing, positioning, etc, of the players throughout the whole game. if one side has a great set of claims and the other doesn't, it definitely matters.

Apple is suing HTC over a swipe unlock, power management, and various other menial stuff.

Don't forget "bouncing" the display when it reaches the end of the scrollable area! And of course the stunning innovation of holding two fingers down at once.

They're software patents. They're trivial by definition.

I must admit, I have a morbid curiosity to see what would happen to Apple's stock price if they were ordered to cease selling the iPhone, iPad, and iPod Touch.

Why the curiosity? You're unsure of what would happen?

What, yes, but I'm curious about the degree to which it happens and the aftermath of that.

I doubt that would ever happen, Apple would never let if get that far. If they do end up in court, and it looks like it is heading in that direction, Apple would pull out. These devices are just far too important and profitable to Apple.

The greatest shame would be if any Apple/HTC/Nokia device was banned for import/sale.

Probably the same if Microsoft were ordered to stop shipping Office/Windows. And since it never happened, we'll never know!

Microsoft was ordered to stop selling Word after losing to i4i's patent suit.

My question: How is any of this (from either side) benefiting the users?

It's not, but it's something all companies resort to due to the failure that is the current patent system.

I think he's asking because HTC said they were doing this to (among other things) protect their customers

All companies will say this, I guess.

In HTC case's, I guess it's because they have to defend themselves. Giving in and wasting money or removing features could be understood as a disservice to their customers.

Well, if HTC were to stop selling devices in the US, it would affect new customers looking for a phone, because there choice has just been cut.

It would affect original customers, because they could not move to another HTC phone, which they may feel comfortable with.

And it would affect them being able to spend time on updates for the phones out there.

Maybe they would remove all support from the US as well.

Is it too much to hope for that there will be a back-room mediating deal where, essentially, both companies drop their existing patent lawsuits and grant one another license to the patents in question? I think that would be better for everybody.

Then they can compete on the merits of their respective products. What a novel idea.

If the patents are what HTC says they are then it will probably come down to a cross-licensing situation. I would expect Nokia / Apple to happen the same way. People are adding a little too much drama into this stuff.

Yes, what do you mean "too much to hope for"? It would be downright weird if anything other than a cross-licensing deal came out of this. All these suits and countersuits are just the lawyerly version of a threat display:

http://www.google.com/images?client=safari&rls=en&q=...

I just had this vision of lawyers in courtrooms that do patent litigation sporting mandatory extra-large Baboon style mandibles.

You are absolutely right, that is exactly what it is.

Never even thought of it that way, brilliant insight.

One can always hope for an invalidation of the patents involved...

The real issue is that it makes it impossible to compete if you don't have a patent portfolio of your own. You couldn't start building your own handset and incorporate features every other phone on the market has, because you have nothing to fight with when you get sued, thus ensuring that only large corporations can sell those products.

Yep, the same has happened in other industries. If you aren't there at the start, you have to be part of a second wave after the first group's patents expire.

Hope for? That's nothing more than the formation of a rent-seeking cartel. It's decidedly not better for any small newcomer that wants to make a smartphone whos not in the cartel.

Its the exact opposite of competing on the merits of their respective products. Its attempting to never have to do so again.

It is called a cross-licensing deal. It is what Intel/AMD have, plus 1000s of other companies.

If you are a newcomer, you are probably going to get HTC or some other company with a deal like this to make it for you.

But yes, it does make it hard to get into. Notice Dell and Apple have managed to get into this space in the last few years, so not impossible.

As Jason Kincaid of TechCrunch points out: "HTC recently forged an agreement with Microsoft that would 'provides broad coverage under Microsoft’s patent portfolio for HTC’s mobile phones running the Android mobile platform'."

I wonder what role that agreement plays into this suit.

I wonder how much money Microsoft is making by providing patent coverage for Linux. They got Amazon to pay up, too. God knows how many companies have been coerced into paying these absurd licensing fees to MS just because they use Linux somewhere. I guess TomTom is an example of what could happen when you don't play ball.

From a strategic point of view for Microsoft (and assuming the assertion in the OP is true), why would Microsoft be willing to help HTC (and consequently, Android) considering that Microsoft has a competing platform due for arrival later this year?

(Conspiracy Theory) Embrace and extinguish? I'm no expert on the numbers but neither seems to be on top of the market. If they can 'work together' they could perhaps change this situation or at least improve it in their favor.

If they're making money licensing patents to competitors, then it doesn't really matter if they have a competing product coming out. They either make money or make money... its just where it comes from that changes.

Who do you think will making those Windows 7 phones?

http://www.htc.com/www/press.aspx?lang=1033&id=124244

Maybe they were desperately looking for patent protection and Microsoft was the cheapest vendor willing to sell it to them.

At the same time Microsoft was rumbling at TomTom over patents, TomTom was rumbling at Microsoft over patents. TomTom's an old hand at suing over patents, having sued a few other GPS makers and users.

Only after about a year of negotiation over cross licensing failed to reach an agreement did both sides file suit. Yes, Microsoft got their suit filed first, by about a month or so. However, it takes several months to prepare to file a patent suit, so it's clear both sides had been working on it for a while.

As far as I've been able to find, there's no public information as to who actually was the initial aggressor between Microsoft and TomTom. But given that up to that time Microsoft had not sued anyone over software patents, and has not sued anyone since then over software patents, and that TomTom had sued people over software patents (in Eastern District of Texas, even), it seems likely that TomTom was the aggressor.

Why isn't Google throwing a line to HTC as well? Maybe they don't have anything to help them?

Maybe HTC doesn't need their help?

HTC said when this first showed up that Apple's lawsuit caught them off guard, so it naturally took a bit of time to figure out what patents Apple was infringing on.

Not that they necessarily say that much, but it would still be interesting to see the names of the patents in question.

HTC believes the industry should be driven by healthy competition and innovation that offer consumers the best, most accessible mobile experiences possible,” [...] We are taking this action against Apple to protect our intellectual property, our industry partners, and most importantly our customers that use HTC phones.”

Please, stop this bullshit! What you really meant was "we are suing Apple because they sued us", just like Apple sued Nokia because Nokia sued them.

Please forgive my rant, but I just can stand companies telling they believe in healthy competition while they are suing competitors trying to shut off the competition.

>Please, stop this bullshit! What you really meant was "we are suing Apple because they sued us"

Which is pretty much exactly what they said.

Your rant is kind of misdirected. HTC's countersuit is basically saying "Frig off Apple and fight us in the market, not in the courts", so yeah they are saying they believe in competition.

"We are taking this action against Apple to protect [...] our customers"

Well, yeah. Their customers Google, Sprint, T-Mobile, and Verizon want to be able to offer smartphones. With HTC out of the equation, that becomes more difficult. With less options, the price is driven up, making smartphones less accessible to those that might benefit from them.

Without someone to keep Apple in check, the 1984 dystopia would already be upon us.

My response was directed at a comment that claimed they said, "we are suing Apple because they sued us". In fact, they said "we're suing Apple to help our customers (etc.)!" which is much different.

Your argument is less direct, and it doesn't interest me so much. Yes, by fighting for their self-preservation (if it is at stake) they help consumers by maintaining competition and/or variety.

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