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> Francophone networks are weak. They are very local, and poor, and for a variety of reasons a little 'self oriented'. This is a Quebec thing, but also a French thing

> An acquaintance calls herself a 'playwright' and she's written 2 tiny productions for the local theatre with 2 actors each - no props or anything. She's late in her 'career' already.

You are making such blanket statements of stereotypes.

The "career" of an artist, as you mention, is not something for you to judge the quality or success of. I suppose that because the great writer Bukowski was still working as an unknown postal worker at age 50 that he was also too late in his career. Or the many other artists with similar "careers". It's not you to judge someone else's artistic output, or for that matter, the quality of a network of people based on the language they speak.

" Francophone networks are weak. They are very local, and poor"

A) French speaking Quebecers are poor, relative to N. America. Median wages are 'ok' due to lots of 'decent' government jobs, but mean wages for Francophones are very low.

B) Francophone business networks usually don't expand beyond Quebec. There are no elite Universities in Quebec (McGill is pretty good, but not French), and there is zero access to networks from elite schools among Francophones.

C) There are very few wealthy Francophone Quebecers who 'write cheques' for startups.

Ergo - networks are very weak here, it's just a fact.

I've lived in several cities in N.America/Europe, this is by far the weakest of 'known cities'. It's probably better than Orlando. Or Dublin. But worse than any of Boston, Toronto, Vancouver, Frankfurt, etc..

"The "career" of an artist, as you mention, is not something for you to judge the quality or success of. "

I'll judge these people however I want, but it's not a judgement to point out that people who prefer to serve coffee and write 1 short play every 10 years aren't the kinds of people who build high-tech startups. I know these people very well (I live in ground-zero of French Montreal), they prefer to do other things, that's fine, it's not a judgement, just a reality. (FYI Bukowski was prolific - he wrote tons of stuff).

A 'circus' - yes. I can't think of any other place in North America where 'Cirque du Soleil' could be born. And it seems there's a huge plethora of 'artisanal' small-scale things ...

I like Montreal, which is why I live here, and I have no doubt there will be some startups here and there that will win, but it will never be the 'leader' in any classical, industrious lines of business. There will likely never be a full-blown ecosystem here for any industry that doesn't already exist.

The people here do not have any interest in building it.

> The people here do not have any interest in building it.

I have. Where do I start?

You can start by getting the Quebec government to reduce the highest bracket income taxes which are a full 10% greater than the rest of Canada and about 12% greater than NY/California.

Just kidding :)

I would say if you want to help, go and work for a startup, or a growing private company that is not just a services entity who's #1 client is the government.

You speak as if salaries in Montreal would reach the highest tax bracket.

"You speak as if salaries in Montreal would reach the highest tax bracket."

Ha ha - you nailed it.

I believe the 'extra 10%' kicks in at only 85K CDN. Which is not that much. It's like 65K USD. A pittance.

This has to be one hugely odd thing about Montreal - especially with exchange rates, salaries are so low.

You might think that's a good thing, but really, it's not because talent will leave.

On the other hand, if you have something good going, you can get good talent cheap, and perhaps pay them above market rates.

Even though the cost of living is commensurate - it's hard for young people to factor that in. They see $150K salary in the US and glaze over it.

> Even though the cost of living is commensurate - it's hard for young people to factor that in. They see $150K salary in the US and glaze over it.

I don't even earn a third of that, and I've been building native iOS, Android and Windows apps for more than 3 years...

    There are no elite Universities in Quebec (McGill is
    pretty good, but not French), and there is zero access to
    networks from elite schools among Francophones.

Another blanket statement. What constitutes an "elite" university?

The Francophones in Quebec have traditionally been, as a population, mostly against making "big bucks". One of the reasons was the religion. The other was that the anglophone ruling class were more than happy to (read "actively engaged in") suppress French success in general.

A lot of things changed in the last century. There are a lot of first generation University students in Quebec today, most of them French speaking. Naturally, the wages in general are expected to be lower. But one has to make the distinction about cost of living. It's lower in Quebec than in a lot of other places. This would explain the relative lower number of French Quebecois who "sign checks" - although they do exist.

Do you have any idea how big is the "circus"? There are some interesting documentaries/reporting on YouTube. Worth checking out. Another big company is the Desjardins bank, which was ranked #1 strongest bank in North America last year IIRC.

Success is relative, it depends on your social status and on what your peers define as being successful. Sure you can apply the SV VC definition of successful to mostly anywhere in the world, and you won't be much impressed. That doesn't mean the locals aren't successful. For a example, for a long time in Quebec the definition of being successful was becoming a pharmacist, doctor, dentist or lawyer. That's something that is being felt today still: a lot of potentially great scientists/entrepreneurs just want to become doctors, because doctors are successful.

Arguably this is no different from elsewhere, but combined with the general population lagging behind the rest of N-A with regards to accumulated wealth and level of education, the net effects are bad (IMO). But the gap is lowering, and I know plenty of young people with big ambitions. Time will tell, but I'm an optimist for the future.

You're taking this personally, which I think is clouding your view.

You don't need to lecture me on the history of Quebec, I'm well aware.

Harvard and Stanford are 'elite' schools.

U. Laval is not.

"Do you have any idea how big is the "circus"?" - it's somewhat less than $1 Billion revenue - which is not that huge.

Desjardins? Ha ... I use Desjardins as my main account - it's backwards and the most 'behind' of any major bank in Canada. I can't get a Visa Debit - among other things. Desjardins is '#1' in stability basically - because they are like a franchise and each branch is separate bank - they have extremely low lending leverage. This gives them a high degree of 'stability' (but also underperformance).

Don't be personal about it, I sense from your writing that you already know Montreal is not a 'winning city' and is not really moving in that direction.

Obviously I'm not 'anti Montreal' or I wouldn't chose to live here.

It's a great town, even a great town to build a startup in, but the people here have little interest in building industries, in the classical sense.

I appreciate that I may come across as personally irritated - I am indeed a bit. Quebec bashing does get tiring, and your condescending tone and seemingly facile arguments did annoy me.

I don't understand the logic of people who hold the arguments you bring forth. It's as if because you're not "elite" (whatever that means) now, you will never be.

Yoshua Bengio's dream (if I may) is to make Montreal a global hotspot of AI research. That's all. Now you (and others) can bash it all you want, blame the local population, blame the language, blame the education system - whatever.

To me, the fact that some people are reacting the way you are is actually confirmation that things are doing well - quite contrary to your frankly misguided assumption that I have a defeatist opinion of the city and the province in general.

>"Montreal has more students/capita than anywhere in North America, due to a clustering of big Unis downtown."

This statement is not true, its not even close:

Montreal with a population of 1.65 million and 248K students would mean around 15% of the population are students.

Larger students per capita in North America would include:

Ames, Iowa 34.2 percent.

Ithaca, New York 32.8 percent.

State College, Pennsylvania 31.8 percent

Lawrence, Kansas 31.1 percent,

College Station-Bryan, Texas 30.6 percent.

For just raw student population numbers in North America:

Chicago has a student population of 670K.

Dallas-Fort Worth and Miami have 380k students each.

San Francisco, Atlanta, Houston, and Detroit each have 300K students.

Sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Montreal

http://www.citylab.com/design/2012/08/americas-leading-colle...

I think he's referring to the fact that the Uni campuses are situated directly downtown. Something rare in other American cities.

Well that would be a measure of density - more students per square meter or something. I'm not sure why that would be relevant if we're talking about the city as a whole.

Montreal has a bunch of major universities right downtown, in the city core/proper. Not the 'major metro area'.

In most other cities, they are way spread out in the region.

Sorry to disagree.

"With access to six universities and twelve junior colleges in an 8 kilometer (5 mi) radius, Montreal, Quebec (Canada) has the highest proportion of post-secondary students of all major cities in North America. "

All of the examples you gave are small college towns.

'Ames' 'Ithaca' 'State College' - those are not cities etc.

Montreal has 6 major universities and other colleges crammed right downtown in a tiny radius.

San Francisco does not have 300K students in the city. There are only 800K residents in SF, that would make almost 50% students :). The 'Bay Area' - sure. But the bay is huge - and not really even a city.

Chicago is a massive, sprawling city with 600K students.

Dallas-Forth Worth - again - massive, sprawling cities, geographically spread out.

Montreal - not including the suburbs, just the city proper, has 100's of thousands of students.

I think the only other city with the student density would be Boston and the numbers may be off because Harvard and MIT are technically in Cambridge, not Boston.

What the OP stated and what I was responding to was:

>"Montreal has more students/capita than anywhere in North America, due to a clustering of big Unis downtown"

They did not state Montreal has the highest student population density areas which is what you are now saying by qualifying that with some spatial component. They said highest "per capita."

They also did not specify "city", they said "anywhere."

> The language issue cannot be overlooked - a little less than 1/2 of Montreal is primarily English speaking

A Joke for you:

Little Johnny asks his mother: what does the word "bilingual" mean?

The mother answers, a person who speaks two languages.

Then Johnny asks, what do you call a person who speaks three languages then?

The mother answers: "trilingual."

How about one language?

"American"

Not sure where this myth comes from. America is a land of immigrants, and hundreds of languages are spoken here. Right up there with India and Indonesia.

http://www.targetmap.com/viewer.aspx?reportId=15941

The US is a very diverse place, compared to many other countries. In the place I grew up, the schools basically had to translate their materials for parents into Spanish, Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, Arabic, and Farsi (looks like Urdu has now been added to that list). Nevertheless, it is a common stereotype that American tourists have a reputation of being unwilling to put any effort into learning foreign languages.

I'll add that it appears to me that French-speakers appear to be the snottiest about it. I suspect that has much to do with the fact that English has largely supplanted French as the main international language of business and politics (which largely dates back to Wilson insisting that English be used when negotiating the Versailles treaty after WWI).

It's not just Americans - it's the English and really Canadians as well.

It's because English is the language that 'everyone else speaks'.

There's just no reason to learn French or German when you can 100% get by in France and Germany speaking English.

>An acquaintance calls herself a 'playwright' and she's written 2 tiny productions for the local theatre with 2 actors each - no props or anything.

I've been to innumerable tech conferences where I've met the heads of 1 or 2 man game shops with no tangible product who call themselves "CEO".

Boston