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Comment by enimodas | Hacker News Reader

I've never understood why people grieve after a miscarriage. Similarly, I was surprised to learn that many people find having an abortion to be somewhat traumatic. I've never had children and I hopefully never will.

Anybody else feels similar or wants to explain? Is it cultural, all just pregnancy hormones or something else?

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That sounds like an odd and crippling inability to empathize. People talk to their gestating children, give them names, make plans for them, tell them how well they are going to take care of them, and then, sometimes, all that falls apart.

It doesn't matter if it's a human life or a hobby project, if a human being spends time and effort on something, and comes to care about that something which is causing them to expend that time and effort, and then they lose it, and can't replace it, they're most likely going to grieve in some way small or large.

Never burnt food or had a computer crash in the middle of some work and felt slightly sad or disappointed? The amount of grief is proportional, I would imagine, to the combination of the value of the thing, the amount of time spent on it, the amount of future plans for it, etc -- and with a baby which you're going to spend the rest of your life (and afterlife, wills and trusts) on... that value is going to eclipse everything else. Already you plan to spend the rest of your life on it, and as it grows you just become more attached, so I can understand the grief, to an extent, it's probably worse than I imagine. i.e., we all know it would be "horrible" to lose a child who had been born and grown up some years, but I don't think anyone could really grapple with the depth of that unless it happened to them.

If you can't understand that, and you never understood it, then I imagine you never bothered to try, because that's just human nature.

I had a driver cut me off the other day when I was driving my son. Just pulled out into the middle of traffic with zero visibility hoping there was no one else there... I was surprised by my immediately violent thoughts of what I would have done to that driver had my son been harmed.

Having kids absolutely rewires parts of your brain. So, that said, I agree with both you and enimodas. I think this is one of those occasions where it's important to distinguish between sympathy and empathy.

Many people dream of having children, of raising them and caring for them with their spouses, of helping them be kind, happy, healthy, educated successful people, of sharing triumphs and defeats with them.

When they learn a child is coming, they're joyful. They work and sacrifice in anticipation: everything from the mother's morning sickness (which, contrary to the name, can happen all day long) to preparing a nursery to finding a day care (which in crazy places like Silicon Valley people often have to do in advance of the birth to secure a spot). They share the happy news with friends and family and coworkers and strangers, have a baby shower, etc.

In some cases, they've been trying to have a child for years. Maybe they're getting up in age and worried they're losing their chance. Maybe they've spent a lot of time and money on fertility treatments. Maybe they've had previous miscarriages.

I've never experienced a miscarriage and hope I never will, but I can imagine some of the disappointment and sadness of never getting to know this new little person, of knowing the sickness was for nothing, of seeing of all these items they bought that now remind them of what might have been, of telling people it didn't work out, of undoing all that work done in preparation of something that won't happen, and of wondering if it's worth it to try again.

> ... seeing of all these items they bought that now remind them of what might have been, of telling people it didn't work out, of undoing all that work done in preparation of something that won't happen ...

This is the reasoning behind suggestions of not even telling others until after the first trimester, which is when most miscarriages happen. It doesn't make any of the other parts easier, but at least the unwinding doesn't have to happen.

An aunt of mine had two (or three?) miscarriages before having her first child. Each time she was absolutely devastated. Honestly I'm pretty surprised that anyone would find that hard to understand. I'm not really big on children (and am childless myself) but trying hard to intentionally get pregnant* , anticipating a child for months, preparing yourself emotionally, and even making space in your home for a child, only to have a miscarriage has got to be one of the most traumatic things I can imagine. Short of losing an already born child or a spouse. In the case of my aunt she went through a really rough time where she blamed herself and later God for her suffering. I don't think that's cultural at all. I think that's just part of being human.

As someone who isn't really interested in having kids it's easy to forget that some people really want them. It is baked into our DNA and has been since before we as a species walked the Earth. If the pregnancy wasn't an accident then it's no wonder people mourn over a miscarriage. As far as they were concerned it was their future child. And I say that as someone who is very much not pro-life.

* Conception is not as easy as abstinence-only education would have you believe. Some perfectly fertile couples try for years before successfully conceiving.

> Some perfectly fertile couples try for years

Maybe those couples are not so perfectly fertile after all...

>> Some perfectly fertile couples try for years

> Maybe those couples are not so perfectly fertile after all...

Perhaps seemingly perfectly fertile couples might have been a better way to put it.

> Some perfectly fertile couples try for years before successfully conceiving.

If both partners are young and healthy then they should have a bun in the oven within 4 months, otherwise something is abnormally wrong.

As long as we're nit-picking here, 4 months of trying doesn't mean that something is wrong. Most doctors ask couples to try for a year before seeing a specialist (unless the woman is older, then wait 6 months or less).

Take a group of fertile 22 year old women, for example. Each one has about a 25% chance per month of getting pregnant, while trying to conceive. After four months, you can expect that about 30% of the original group still will have not conceived (75% ^ 4). Absolutely nothing wrong with them, it's just a numbers game.

Spreading misinformation like "a bun in the oven within 4 months, otherwise something is abnormally wrong" is awful for couples who are trying to conceive for a few months, and already stressed out enough about it.

Tycho of Penny Arcade describes this well, I think:

  Children carve something out of you, a place for themselves; 
  people can twist the knife in that spot, and it just bleeds and bleeds.

The process of having a child changes the parents in many ways: emotionally, psychologically, physically, etc. The parents carry not only their own expectations, hopes, and dreams, but those of their friends and family.

This is true. I never once teared up during a movie, passage from a book, etc until after my son was born. I can't say what it is like for other people but for me it is almost like gaining a new sense.

I ended my years long lurking here to be able to second this comment. The way you articulated this--a new sense--is so spot on.

It is neither cultural nor hormonal. A miscarriage is the loss of what was going to be a human life, and all the plans, thoughts, and hopes that went along with it. And the later in pregnancy it is, the harder it is to take. Miscarrying at six weeks is different from miscarrying at 11 weeks. I've done both (and I didn't grieve terribly either time, but I felt the loss). I can't imagine how much worse it would be to miscarry at, say, 18 weeks, when you've felt the baby kicking.

I'm much like you: It is a bit harder for me to understand. I have no desires for children either.

But it seems most people think of it somewhat differently. Other girls dreamed about what they'd name their children while I dreamed of travel and work and adventure.

But they grow up, and are genuinely excited to be pregnant. There are hormones and stuff plus fufillment of dreams and family life and things. And then it is all lost. The further along someone is, the more they are attached to both the human growing and the person they imagine it will grow up to be. I don't actually think it is possible for you and I to properly understand the loss because of the difference in mindsets.

For abortion, some folks have additional cultural baggage and guilt. Not to mention that some folks have to jump through hoops to get an abortion, and I'm pretty sure "what if..." is common. Understandable because it is a major life decision either way.

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