Facebook’s Virtual Reality Foray Derided as ‘Fanciful Story’ | Hacker News Reader

Facebook’s Virtual Reality Foray Derided as ‘Fanciful Story’

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128 pointseuroclydon84 comments

This whole case seems utterly bizarre; I followed the development of the rift pre-Oculus, and none of what Zenimax are saying seems to be grounded in reality. As I remember, Carmack's real innovation was to create a full screen effect that compensated for the cheap optics that palmer's design used; Now you could claim that as a member of staff, this innovation belonged to Zenimax, but this does not appear to be the case that they are making. In addition, how come other independent organisations have been able to create working VR without treading all over their patents if they were really betting on the technology?

I doubt it's about patents, since Carmack himself wouldn't be involved if it was.

This seems to be a copyright issue, i.e. whether Carmack did a ctrl+c, ctrl+v on something he didn't own. Alternatively perhaps Zenimax has additional and convincing information about how the works in question was re-implemented. Was it done by Carmack himself, or did a team implement it from his specification?

I don't have time to read through the thread today, but I did before the Rift kickstarter was announced, and my impression has always been that the software-distortion-in-compensation-for-simpler-optics[1] idea was already out there when Carmack chimed in.

1. Allowing the screen to be much closer, drastically improving practically achievable FOV.

Here's the thread: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=14777

Of course it was - the barrel distortion system was originally developed in the 1990s for and by (?) LEEP:

http://www.leepvr.com/

Back then, the optics were key - and very expensive - but while the optics were originally used to warp then unwarp the image (ie - analog warping), it was thought that the warp portion could be done in software (but computers at the time weren't powerful enough to do it real-time).

I believe that Palmer was fully aware of this, and when the LEEP optics patent expired, realized that a cheaper version could be made, and combined with other parts coming on the market (particularly lightweight, large, high-res phone displays) to build a "dream" HMD.

"none of what Zenimax are saying seems to be grounded in reality"

So let me get this straight. Are you saying that Zenimax is inventing a... virtual... reality?

> I followed the development of the rift pre-Oculus, and none of what Zenimax are saying seems to be grounded in reality.

I was following Palmer's progress on the MTBS3D forums long before he even thought about the Rift. He'd been modding HMDs and recombining old 90's hardware in very interesting ways - as someone who was very into homebrew VR back in the mid-1990s, by 2012 it had become something of a "once-upon-a-time" fad (VR winter, maybe?) - nobody sold any kind of real HMD, nobody was really doing anything - it fascinated me.

At the time, I was collecting up what little detritus of the 90s VR craze existed (I managed to get a complete collection of PCVR magazine before it was impossible to do so, plus numerous HMDs, Powergloves, Ascension FOBs trackers, etc). When I saw what Palmer was doing, he was like one of a handful of people I knew of who was playing with this stuff. It was really in left-field at the time! I had stopped really playing with it myself, pursuing other things - but when I saw what he was doing, I knew at that time that if VR was to ever make a comeback, Palmer would be at the front.

Which is what led me to back his KS when he announced it.

> As I remember, Carmack's real innovation was to create a full screen effect that compensated for the cheap optics that palmer's design used

He may have coded up one of the first shaders for this, but the idea of doing a software-based barrel warp transform has been around since the early-1990s or further, when LEEP was selling their optics system:

http://www.leepvr.com/

It was insanely expensive. I have no doubt that Palmer knew of them, since he was playing with old-school VR parts. His drive indicated to me that he probably has read all of the old-school books/magazines on VR and such, which all talked about the LEEP system.

The patent on the optics ran out sometime in the early-2000s, IIRC (?) - and I think Palmer jumped on it, especially when low-cost, high-res phone displays became available for experimenters.

Reading your post reminded me of a post you submitted a month ago on the same topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13124415

I think the previous post is a gem and will be helpful for readers.

Read Carmacks biography!

His first job was at a small computer shop where he wrote business software. He felt the job was boring and with some friends started developing PC games in secret, on work machines and while lifting wages. This is how id software was born. Due to that book, I think he will have a hard time convincing a jury he is innocent.

edit: its even on wikipedia

Softdisk, [...] hired Carmack to work on Softdisk G-S [...] introducing him to John Romero and other future key members of id Software such as Adrian Carmack [...]. In 1990, while still at Softdisk, Carmack, Romero, and others created the first of the Commander Keen games, [...]

From what I remember of "Masters of Doom" he was indeed using his employer's PCs, office etc but outside of working hours and with the blessing of at least someone higher up. I don't think anything in there implies that he was defrauding the company.

IIRC they were doing just that but the owner let them off easy (they had to write some additional software for the company). With a more trigger happy owner things could have ended very differently

>From what I remember of "Masters of Doom" he was indeed using his employer's PCs, office etc but outside of working hours and with the blessing of at least someone higher up.

Sounds like a convenient post-hoc rationalization, right in line with what may be occurring in this developing story about the Rift.

If you don't believe it, read Masters of Doom - it's a hugely sympathetic history of id and they still manage to look like sociopaths in it, especially Carmack. They steal, lie and backstab their friends.

Especially Romero's "resignation". if that played out a tenth of how it was written, that's devastating.

Admittedly, Romero was getting complacent and becoming more of the end-user than developer, but man... To get booted from your own creation with a prepared resignation letter, savage.

Firing sixth wheel that stopped producing anything of value a savage move? The best thing Romero was involved in after Doom(and 10 quake maps?) was founding Ion Storm and only screwing up Dallas office(Did you "suck him down"? "became his bitch"?[1]) leaving Austin alone to create Deus Ex.

My fav is Brenda(wife) telling everyone a story of young brilliant Romero hacking computers at a military ICBM facility, basically a script to wargames ....

[1] http://kotaku.com/5541406/john-romero-is-so-sorry-about-tryi...

I don't think sociopathic is an accurate characterization. Carmack's behavior struck me as similar to someone with Asperger's Syndrome (based on the Masters of DOOM book.)

Anyone claiming Carmack to be a sociopath should remind themselves of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor

I see so and so's razor thrown around so often I think many should remember philosophical niceties aren't always true. Sometimes the simplest explanation is not the correct one and sometimes things that could be simply attributed to stupidity are malicious (and targeted because of the nice disguise).

I know a lot of people in the STEM field that simply find it easier to act like they're socially inept and treat people like shit rather than "put in the work" to have nice, courteous relationships with people. I'd argue some even feel it makes them seem more intelligent to "not fit in with the normies."

That's not to say Carmack is or isn't a sociopath. I haven't read much on him outside of acknowledgement chapters in game design tutorials. It's just really tiring seeing people dismiss claims with aphorisms like the Greeks got everything right and we don't have to reason anymore...

I've not read Masters of Doom, but I have heard Carmack describe his school-age self as a huge jerk. However, for a least the past 15 years he seems to have pulled a Gates (before Gates did) and has come across as one of the most genuine, nice people in tech. Not just in big, public displays but in every little thing he does in the constant public interaction that he has.

Sociopath? There's no friends in business.

Does that excuse sociopaths or indict business?

I've met plenty of successful business people for whom profits and tactical considerations do not override ethics, loyalty, or basic decency. There's no physical law that says that the business context automatically inflicts the kind of brain damage that inevitably leads straight to psychopathy.

There are many friends in business; they're necessary to aid in undermining those who act like they need none, and behave with predatory self-interest.

...is what a sociopath would say

That's a rather selectively edited quote. Full version, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carmack:

> Softdisk, a computer company in Shreveport, Louisiana, hired Carmack to work on Softdisk G-S (an Apple IIGS publication), introducing him to John Romero and other future key members of id Software such as Adrian Carmack (not related). Later, this team would be placed by Softdisk in charge of a new, but short-lived, bi-monthly game subscription product called Gamer's Edge for the IBM PC (DOS) platform. In 1990, while still at Softdisk, Carmack, Romero, and others created the first of the Commander Keen games, a series that was published by Apogee Software, under the shareware distribution model, from 1991 onwards. Afterwards, Carmack left Softdisk to co-found id Software.

Nowhere does it say that Commander Keen was created using work hardware or on company time.

Everything I've seen and read about Carmack portrays him as a guy who loves to build new tech. It would be totally out of character for him to copy and claim someone else's work, much less to "steal thousands of files."

As soon as I saw the suit was ZeniMax I dismissed it immediately. They'd sue me for this comment if they could figure out how.

The suit has merit. You may want to read the article.

Could you elaborate? Do they have a history of frivolous lawsuits? I could not find anything in a quick google search.

>ZeniMax contends Carmack was responsible for the breakthroughs that transformed the Rift into a “powerful immersive virtual reality experience.”

...that was completely trampled by the HTC Vive. It's like ZeniMax insists on squabbling over the scraps of a failure.

To play devil's advocate, I suppose they didn't know this when they filed, and Oculus may still prove quite valuable in the future—but either way, they could probably start their own VR program for what their legal bills are going to cost in the end.

Worse, the Vive has leapfrogged them with wireless support, additional trackers, etc. I feel like there's an elephant in the room when discussion the value or 'success' of the Rift. I don't think most consumers casually interested in VR realize how behind those guys are.

I do see the Oculus/Rift branding being repurposed for a Facebook social experience, if not an entire platform for phones to support, but in the realm of PC gaming or anything that requires desktop GPU/CPU levels of power, I imagine they'll always be second fiddle and will be surprised if they last much longer. Tim Sweeney is claiming the Vive outsells the Rift 2-to-1 right now. That's damning for a company with Facebook heft behind it and several years of community engagement, developer kits, hype, etc which ultimately when up against a product that came out of nowhere but delivered everything on day one: controllers, roomscale, good fov, amazing tracking, immersion, etc as well as trivially being able to do seated/standing experiences.

> That's damning for a company with Facebook heft behind it

That's not great when their target market is gamers, a large number of whom distrust facebook, love valve, hate the idea of a VR device trying to become a walled garden, and are generally entitled jerks who will whine and cry and talk about how they are never buying an oculus product because palmer lied about the price/sold out to facebook/whatever.

Ehh, I agree the Vive is way better when it comes to tracking technology, but Vive and Oculus are basically at parity otherwise with Oculus having the upper-hand when it comes to ergonomics and design of the headset and controllers.

Oculus is far from dead in the water and is definitely very valuable, especially with their lead in the performance software space with Asynchronous Timewarp/Spacewarp. They'll lag behind Vive in global sales for a while because FB doesn't have a foothold in Asia yet, but Vive vs Oculus is definitely an active competition.

IMHO this is likely to be moot anyway. One of the takeaways I got from CES this year is that Galaxy Gear and Vive have won the VR race. There were zero Rift demos. This is looking like a fight over who is going to own the IP for HD-DVD.

The Galaxy Gear is made by Samsung in collaboration with Oculus.

Yes, but it's been managed as a separate product, in a separate category (mobile VR), and now — after the recent reorg at Oculus — in a separate division. It's also the one that Carmack has been focused on exclusively for well over a year now. On a day-to-day basis, he doesn't have anything to do with the Rift.

For what it is worth, the Gear provided better VR than the Vive did. The higher resolution was definitely noticeable and the distance adjustment worked properly, unlike the Vive. The lack of controllers was of course an issue, but none of the Rift demos made very good use of the controls anyway so it was kind of moot.

Nah, the VR race is just getting started. Vive won this round, in my opinion, because it exclusively had controllers for nearly a year and has a better tracking solution. But the real test is going to be who develops an inside-out tracked, fully self-contained headset. That's the device that will really break through the mainstream.

In that respect, Oculus has shown off the Santa Cruz prototype and Intel showed of their self-contained headset at CES, while HTC hasn't shown anything in that space.

Keep in mind that Oculus had been showing off prototypes for years when the Vive almost came out of nowhere and completely leapfrogged them on room-scale VR and tracked controllers.

Oculus has a track record so far of actually getting to market very slowly. Granted, their recent troubles and the success of the Vive might be pushing them to change that practice.

Well it didn't really come out of nowhere. Valve and Oculus worked very closely together before the FB acquisition. Valve had been working on its prototype alongside Oculus, and only decided to bring it to market when Oculus sold to FB as they knew FB would want to control the software, which Valve wanted to do.

Offtopic, but how do I read that title? Syntax error in my head. I get the "Goes to Trial" part, but "Carmack Rift Over Oculus"?

Either: The rift over Oculus involving Carmack. Or: Carmack's rift over Oculus.

I think the wordplay is confusing you. Rift is the product name, but that's not how they're using it here. A "rift" is a disagreement. So the headline can be restated as "The disagreement related to Carmack about the Oculus goes to trial."

It's intentionally written like that - it's a play on the word rift and the "Oculous Rift"

I'd blame the senseless title case that Americans use. If rift was lowercase, it would be easier to understand.

"Carmack rift over Oculus goes to trial"

Yeah but the device is the Oculus Rift.

Yep, hence the pun

It's a pun. :)

> relations between the startups quickly soured

I wouldn't call Zenimax a "startup"

well, Uber still is called one

I got really excited thinking maybe Carmack would be set free, but he's at the center of it:

ZeniMax contends Carmack was responsible for the breakthroughs that transformed the Rift into a “powerful immersive virtual reality experience.” But after Carmack and Luckey agreed to use the Rift to showcase a specially configured version of Doom 3 at a Los Angeles convention in 2012, relations between the startups quickly soured, according to ZeniMax.

Instead of discussing how Oculus would compensate ZeniMax, Luckey and Oculus’s then-Chief Executive Officer Brendan Iribe allegedly became “increasingly evasive and uncooperative.” Next, they hired Carmack, who is accused of copying thousands of documents from his computer at ZeniMax.

and

Carmack says he also offered to manufacture and sell a consumer headset similar to Luckey’s, but his idea fell flat with ZeniMax’s CEO Robert Altman, a former lawyer who had also been CEO of the adult entertainment website FriendFinder Networks Inc.

What a world we live in. Are there any indications to how this case may go?

Wasn't Doom 3 GPL'd ?

It is, at least the version that is on the Id Software Github

https://github.com/id-Software/DOOM-3/blob/master/COPYING.tx...

> Next, they hired Carmack, who is accused of copying thousands of documents from his computer at ZeniMax.

This claim sounds pretty dubious. Has John Carmack said anything about it?

Does it? Carmack wouldn't be the first engineer to ignore legal details in pursuit of perceived nobler goals. Many mass-ignore sw patents every day.

Guilt needs to be proven, but I don't find it hard to imagine.

Side note: HN may not realize, but the public sympathy in this case may not be with Carmack and Oculus. ZeniMax, as parent of Bethesda, has a largely solid rep among the video game consumer audience as publisher of respectable games, and while the acquisition of id was initially seen as id selling out, their latest game under Bethesda (the first shipped without Carmack at the company) is widely regarded as a major return to form for a once-struggling game developer. Meanwhile Occulus burned through most of its initial goodwill with (perceived to be) disappointing pricing, exclusiviy shenanigans and losing a lot of ground to HTC's strong Vive offering. Carmack has tons of deserved cachet with us, but the public at large may be ready to hang him and Oculus. This will get ugly.

I would argue most software engineers perceive a huge rift between "I am comfortable violating some software patents" and "I am comfortable exfiltrating large swaths of my employers code base." I would hope so at least.

Most software engineers aren't Carmack, though. He used to co-own his technology, and graciously rooted for putting much of it under open licenses. I think Carmack is a pragmatist and certainly understands the business value of code, but also isn't a big fan of constraints.

It's not like the my mind is made up, I don't know either way. Curious to see what the trial will bring.

Carmack wasn't a freelancer working under Zenimax on an hourly basis. He was a full time employee working on the same industry in games, and as ex-CTO of id (and knowing what we know of Carmack's talents and what he's done before) he was most likely doing a lot more research and prototyping work in his capacity at Zenimax. Therefore it's a lot less obvious what he has ownership of vs what Zenimax has ownership of.

The article seems to be about copyright, not patents.

Also, it's not ipso facto illegal to implement the invention or claims embodied within a patent. That's just not how it works.

Which game are you talking about?

Doom (2016).

Really? If you were to ask me and my friends "which company made Doom 2016 a success", we'd reply id Software, not ZeniMax.

The "video game consumer audience" probably doesn't even know ZeniMax exists.

The name's most closely associated, IMO, with Elder Scrolls Online, which was marketed under ZeniMax to some extent.

ZeniMax, as parent of Bethesda, has a largely solid rep among the video game consumer audience

...as an initiator of frivolous lawsuits.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/elder-scrolls-vs-minec...

So, as usual, the public support will depend on who can dig up more headline-worthy dirt on the other party.

It's really only a handful of people comprising the jury that need to be swayed.

facebook vs. Zenimax? I wonder which has more public acclaim and recognition to your point, not that I'm a particular fan of either...

>>It's really only a handful of people comprising the jury that need to be swayed.

Company image can be ruined in lawsuits which can turn off consumers from purchasing your goods.

I don't think most developers, if any are mass-ignoring software patents that they are aware of... beyond this, software patents shouldn't be allowed in the first place. Anything done purely in software is mostly derivative and tasks that anyone skilled in what is being developed could come up with, without intentionally infringing.

Software patents, and in fact most patents should go away.

Are "cachet", "rep", "sympathy" and "goodwill" likely to strongly influence the outcome of this case?

I have more faith in the courts than that. Where did I claim they would? It's a separate issue, hence "side note".

>ZeniMax, ... a rep among the video game consumer audience as

litigious bastards run by clueless lawyer/pron peddler (btw how curious any mention of friendfinder quickly vanish from his wiki page)

The core of the case revolves around ZeniMax accusing Carmack of copying thousands of Doom 3 source files, you know, the ones Carmack personally authored and released as GPL before selling ID.

I find it hard to imagine. Personality issues aside, Carmack is one of the greatest programmers of our time, and arguably the greatest video game programmer ever. Why would he need to copy anything? All of his value is in his head.

If you'd said he violated an employee contract by working for Oculus on his off-hours because he couldn't help himself, I'd believe it. But stealing documents? No.

that's a bit of a hyperbole isn't it? the obvious counterexample is tim sweeney, who arguably has the more successful game engine and also video games.

there are undoubtedly many game programmers and programmers in general that are completely unknown to the public and maybe even their peers that would be in the running for being "the best".

carmack seems to enjoy his status, which feeds it even more. he is no doubt good, but his cult following may cloud how good he is a bit.

also, who wants to rewrite code they've already written? there's plenty of incentive to want to take code you've already written. nobody likes solving the same problems twice.

All he needs to do to 'copy thousands of documents' is not wipe his hard drive on his way out. Any of us have thousands of 'documents' next to us at all times.

If anything, the fact that Carmack's statements (in this article) focus not on denying anything, but rather focusing on how what he did was ok, it's likely that many (and at very least a core) of the accusations are true. This is referred to as an affirmative defense.

The allegation about copied documents is only one line in TFA, with no context. It's highly likely that the quotes from Carmack are him replying to a different question than "did you steal files?"

> ZeniMax also declined to invest in Oculus in an early financing round and was unwilling to accept anything short of “a large non-dilutable stake” in Oculus in return for allowing Carmack’s participation as a technical adviser, according to Carmack’s filing

If there was an issue with proprietary information wouldn't they have objected that the financing stage?

After trying both the Vive and the Rift, I immediately stopped worrying about whether we were all going to have to log into our headsets with Facebook. The Vive is amazing in comparison.

Your heading is much better than Bloomberg's, but still confusing.

Why wait all this time to figure out they want to sue? FB bought occulus, Carmack Joined ... a few years later their lawyers wake up now? Anyone know more about this, or at least has seen similar strategies before? The only thing I could guess is that they waited until the goose lay an egg, which turned out not to be gold ...?

This has been in the pipeline for nye on 3 years.

https://www.engadget.com/2014/05/01/zenimax-claims-oculus-st...

Once Palmer sold us all out to Facebook it was over. Fortunately, better headsets are on the scene.

At Zenimax: "Hey guys. This whole VR is becoming a real thing and we dismissed it along with this Carmack dude. Lets fill a suit against Zuckerberg for ludicrous amount of money, maybe we can get couple millions for free via settlement."

Reminds me of that scene from the social network: "Did we use any of your code? If you guys were the inventors of the Occulus Rift, you would have invented the occulus rift"

If anyone had the grounds to sue it would be Valve. This one seems absurd on the face of it. Still, we'll see what comes out.

why?

Abrash handed over a lot of Valve IP and prototypes to Oculus (note: Gabe did not object) before himself joining Oculus. Oculus did their VC demos at Valve on Valve hardware. I think gabe was hoping that oculus would put all their games on Steam. Didn't work out that way :-)

Still, my comment was semi-flippant; Valve is no lawsuit monster and even if they were inclined to sue, they surely would have done so by now. But there were quite a few unhappy people at Valve about how that went down, and IMHO the Vive is in part a this-is-how-you-really-do-it fuck you to Oculus.

In any case I feel like this is simply an opportunistic deep-pocket-reaching lawsuit against FB.

PS: don't know why my original comment was downrated.

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