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Comment by izacus | Hacker News Reader

The fact that's completely impossible to buy a dumb TV anymore (the only company I know of that does something like that is Vizio, which isn't present in the EU market) is starting to become a huge problem - if you want a big screen in your home, it's impossible to not install the greatest malware vector and security risk in the house.

Btw, from an application developers perspective it gets even better. For example Samsung locks down the application store updates after one year for each SmartTV models. So right now, SmartTV app developers aren't allowed to update ANY applications for 2015 and olders models of Samsung TVs. At all! When 2017 lineup comes in a month or so, all current Samsung SmartTVs will stop receiving app updates as well.

So your applications WILL stop working and start rotting after a year or so after you buy their TV.

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"The fact that's completely impossible to buy a dumb TV anymore (the only company I know of that does something like that is Vizio, which isn't present in the EU market) is starting to become a huge problem - if you want a big screen in your home, it's impossible to not install the greatest malware vector and security risk in the house."

It's actually quite easy to buy a "dumb" screen and those dumb screens just happen to also be the nicest, longest lasting, physically tough screens you can buy.

I am speaking of commercial displays which are produced by all of the major manufacturers.

You know, airport displays.

They are fantastic displays, they typically have very, very small bezels (even if they aren't displaywall displays) and they are as dumb as dumb can be.

I highly recommend a commercial/signage display.

This is very interesting. Can you recommend a store?

No - you have to figure out the commercial display model and order it from amazon or ebay. You cannot buy these screens at best buy and they are a little bit (but not a lot) more expensive than consumer displays.

http://www.newegg.com/Commercial-Displays/SubCategory/ID-308...

$5,000 for an 80" Display screen. That's obscene.

My most recent display was an NEC p461 (46" commercial display panel - exactly what you see in an airport) and I think it was $1400 in 2011.

For example Samsung locks down the application store updates after one year for each SmartTV models. So right now, SmartTV app developers aren't allowed to update ANY applications for 2015 and olders models of Samsung TVs.

That doesn't seem to be true. My 3 yo Samsung TV is still getting app updates and my 5 yo Blueray player (with the same software) is also still getting app updates.

Agreed, my 2015 Samsung TV just got a flurry of new app updates before Xmas, including Amazon Video and Spotify that previously weren't available at all.

Which Samsung platform is it running?

> The fact that's completely impossible to buy a dumb TV anymore

There's still a commercial/industrial market segment that manufacturers target (digital signage, hospitality/hospital TV systems, etc).

The TVs produced for those segments are either dumb, or give the owner control over the device.

Those typically don't have tuners, but in the age of the cable box that hardly matters.

If you don't mind paying for shitty tv, then yeah, I guess.

This is what I don't like about this whole "smart" era we're entering into. Now you buy a smart TV or a smart phone or any other "smart gadgets" and you don't even know if it will receive any security updates in 1 year. It's terrible.

It'll get legislated against in one way or another once a nations worth of TV's start DDOSing the rest of the world. As usual, politicians will have to actually see the problem before they act on it though.

I absolutely agree that there must be regulations for smart devices regarding security updates. I mean, Google is releasing security updates for Android for FREE and lots of OEMs don't even bother to update their phones. Unbelievable.

This mediocrity must stop.

A smart TV which you don't plug into the Internet, is the same as a dumb TV.

No it's not. Not when all basic TV functionality is handled through its operating system.

I have a Sony Bravia Smart TV. The only thing I use on it is the screen, the power button, and the volume control.

Everything else is handled by the Internet connected Amazon Fire TV stick I plug into it. It is effectively a dumb TV and will not get infected by malware.

Unless it can be infected using the stick as a proxy (though I haven't seen that as a possible vulnerability yet).

That'd be quite the feat, at the only connectivity between the stick and TV is via HDMI.

Ethernet over HDMI is a thing.

Got a link?

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/hec.aspx

Although with the way I've got my house wired, HDMI over Ethernet would be more useful.

Wow, that is scary

But it only matters if it's implemented on both ends, which it might not be.

Well... considering Light Bulbs can now be infected over the air:

http://boingboing.net/2016/11/09/a-lightbulb-worm-could-take...

I would agree odds are low of something that insidious... but it's hard to say "it'd be impossible for my TV to get hacked" when even light bulbs are getting attacked.

https://hackaday.com/2015/08/09/def-con-hdmi-cec-fuzzing/

I have an LG with WebOS and try to use my TV the same as you. I don't have it connected to wifi so it's unlikely that it will get infected with malware anytime soon, but it did crash yesterday when I turned it off at the end of the night. I had to pull out the power plug to turn it off.

That's one thing that never happened to me with a (truly) dumb TV and I've only owned this one for a month. I sure hope the CPU hardware running this OS doesn't degrade as quickly as normal consumer PC hardware and I can expect it to run as quick and reliably as it does now in ten years from now (like the TV it replaced did).

Well it isn't. First of all it's the obvious software deficiencies - it'll still boot a heavy OS (boot times can exceed a few minutes from col start), even operations like switching HDMI inputs take significantly longer.

Also several manufacturers (I know of some Samsung versions and Phillips) will position web services in first-level UX navigation making those TVs annoying to use as dumb TVs. There are even some models that will constantly nag you to connect them to the internet!

You know what I miss? When my CRT TV would turn on in 2s, and channel switches took < 100ms.

That was great, wasn't it? Channel switching was instant, why can't we have that now too? :/

It's probably because of the span between consecutive I-frames (or intra-block sweeps if not using I-frames) in the video stream, but audio should switch "instantaneously" (within 1 frame).

Hmm, if that were the case, wouldn't the time spent waiting be variable? That would mean that you'd sometimes get instant switches, when the I-frame was the next frame you received after the switch.

It is variable, the stations are multiplexed on channels, so sometimes you can use the same stream and sometimes you have to switch. That takes time.

I presume the TV hides that by always taking the same amount of time to change stations.

We managed to get zap time < 300ms on our IPTV platform, but that required A LOT of additional work configuring encoders, networking equipment and messing around with STB firmwares.

There's bunch of places between the video source and you that add their own buffers (not to mention the actual I-frame issues). Usually the most critical are encoders themselves (need to generate closed GOPs and a lot of commercial expensive hardware stuff doesn't give you enough control) and the player software on STBs (those usually have large buffers pre-set).

In the end it's rather large amount of work most IPTV (and digital cable) providers don't care about because... hey... where are you gonna go if you're unhappy with their service? :)

Then get a better brand. Samsung is an awful brand that constantly blares updates at you. I have one, I hate it.

On the other hand, I have an LG. It's "smart" but it starts up instantly and has no trouble with UX.

I have an LG OLED TV. Never connected it to the Internet. Instant-on with the Apple TV, haven't interacted with the Smart TV OS at all and doesn't seem to slow it down.

I know some Samsung TVs which receive Ethernet via HDMI. So all connected devices have to be offline as well.

I wonder if you could make a filter of sorts that blocked the ethernet signals while still allowing audio/video? Sort of like those USB "condoms" that block data but allow power.

Do it on the router. I blocked my Samsung TV from accessing internet, but still allow it into LAN for DLNA.

It can be hard to unplug it. I have a 2014 Samsung Smart TV. I didn't want the smart stuff but there wasn't much option. When I first got it I gave it my wifi password just to check it out, confirmed that I'd rather just use my HTPC and turned off wifi.

Lo and behold every few months something would happen which would make it clear that it was connected to the internet. I'd get banner ads. I'd get notices from the mothership about important updates. That sort of thing. Each time I'd discover that the wifi was back on and each time they'd have hidden how to remove it somewhere else.

Eventually I just changed my wifi password and that seemed to have done the trick.

Do you have a source for this, just so I don't have to cite, "this guy on the Internet" when I'm talking to the Best Buy sales guy?

Which part? The Samsung part is a first hand experience trying to publish to Samsung store, might be mentioned somewhere on there backend. I'll check.

I found a 4K Toshiba that only had Google Cast built in. I bought a Pi and use that as the the smart part..

> The fact that's completely impossible to buy a dumb TV anymore

That's one of reasons why I'll hold to my 109cm Samsung plasma TV for as long as I'll possibly can. That and the fact that it's way better at watching (artistic) movies than any LED-based TV sets.

..and it doubles as a heater!

For "dumb tv" see "monitors". They do exist.

Monitors still contain firmware and can be hacked:

https://firmwaresecurity.com/2016/12/12/monitordarkly-dell-m...

All this is really easy to fix:

1. Buy a smart TV

2. Don't connect it to your Wi-Fi

3. Buy a Chromecast

If you want a dumb and secure TV just don't connect the TV to the Internet.

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