LG signals plan to put Wi-Fi in every appliance it releases in 2017 | Hacker News Reader

LG signals plan to put Wi-Fi in every appliance it releases in 2017

arstechnica.co.uk

52 pointspareidolia49 comments

I sure hope they also plan to provide security updates for the lifetime of these fridges (10-20 years?) and make them update without any need for user interaction.

It's more likely they limit the lifetime.

...or maybe they'll trigger a new era of IoT custom firmwares?

Or they could just make sure the appliances don't actually last 10-20 years. Update problem solved, just buy a new fridge.

TBH since the IOT part is removable you might just buy a new panel every 10 or so years. After 20 years it's unlikely that you'll be able to connect it to anything anyhow, most Wifi 802.11a cards do not work anymore with modern routers. You can't connect a 20 year old cellphone to modern networks, and even 15 year old DSL modems can very well not work anymore in many countries, same goes for cable modems if you have a DOCSIS 1.1 modem you likely not going to be able to hook it up to a modern cable network since most of them run DOCSIS 2.0 or higher.

So security updates should be mandated for the 7-10 years or so warranty period for large appliances, ideally you'll want more than that sure, but I don't think that connectivity would be common at that point.

Your comment got me interested in what warranties are about for modern appliances (I'm cheap, I buy my appliances used).

This link [0] asserts that LG warranties are diminished beyond one year, although some models continue parts-only coverage up to seven years, with a ten year parts warranty on the compressor of a particular style (so-called French Door models). The warranties are non-transferable from original owner.

This [1] bottom-freezer French Door model's manual states the warrant is as described above (warranty summary table on page 55 of English manual).

So we'd want to be careful about updates being supported for the warranty period - perhaps the longest term stated in the warranty, and updates required regardless of owner?

[0] https://www.reference.com/home-garden/lg-s-warranty-policy-i...

[1] http://www.lg.com/us/support-product/lg-LFX31925ST

[edit: got rid of referral link on second ref]

It really depends on the country, in the UK the Sales of Goods Act guarantees you the rights to file a complaint period of 6 years. Most white goods are sold with a longer service period guarantee by the manufacturer, and those who aren't the retailer often provides more at a small fee or even "free".

Samsung, LG and the rest provide upto 5 years full warranty on both parts and labor for white goods in the UK, technically it's often paid but pretty much every place you go has a promotion which gives you the extra 2-3 years for "free".

http://www.samsung.com/uk/fiveyearwarranty/

That said it's important to note that the warranty period and the service period are 2 different things, the warranty period is how long the manufacturer will provide free cover to either parts labor or both, and the service period is how long would the manufacturer make parts and labor available and offer service and repair to the item.

As a rule of thumb the service period is usually 2-3 times the length of the warranty period.

P.S.

The SOGA/CPA acts in the UK are pretty good as far as security and other software related bugs go because one of the things that need to be proven is that the problem was there at the time of purchase (or was introduced by the manufacturer) and this is very easy to do with security bugs since they are in the software, software can introduce bugs on its own (yet) this isn't a pipe that fails.

I got a 5 year old router replaced based on this act recently, if the seller gives you trouble then the ombudsman services solve it pretty darn quickly (http://www.consumer-ombudsman.org/) since they will answer complaints immidiatly.

Even if they do offer updates will they engineer the updating system properly for devices that aren't connected for a while?

Sounds like an "of course they would, who wouldnt?" situation.

Well, I have a Sony Bravia KDL46EX520 that I bought in June of 2011. It wasn't connected to the Internet for a few years while I used a PS3 with it. This year I moved, ditched the PS3 and decided to use the built in apps. I tried connecting to the net with both the USB dongle for WiFi and over Ethernet. The TV told me it had a connection but none of the internet features would connect. The built in software update tool also told me it couldn't connect.

After messing with my network, swapping cables, swapping switches, I went online and found very little documentation about my device.

Finally, as a bit of a last resort, I found a Sony support page where you can download the latest firmware and put it on a USB drive. If the USB drive is compatible with the Sony TV (no list of compatible devices is provided) then it will update the TV.

I got lucky and my USB drive was compatible and the TV updated.

After updating the TV's smart features work again, I can use Netflix and the software update tool says it can not find any newer version of software available.

If I wasn't technical I wouldn't even think to look online for some obscure software update procedure. Sony really dropped the ball on this. So badly that even though I love this TV I went and bought a Samsung unit for another room to hedge against future situations like this.

My wife had a Kindle that was really out of date. It wouldn't connect to the store or find updates.

I had to put an update on the device using a laptop and then restart, which then updated the device. However that was still too old, so I had to repeat the process before it was fully up to date.

Was this the update? I remember Amazon made a pretty big attempt to notify everyone at least a month before the date but I imagine it would have been difficult to reach everyone.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...

I think so. My wife had the Kindle stored away somewhere and found it again, so we didn't know about it. She hadn't used it in at least a year, maybe two.

LG appliances don't last that long.

Planned obsolescence. The greater the software/hardware complexity included - the more opportunity for obsolescence. For the manufacturer & retailer - a great component of their "business models." Not so great for consumers/environment.

I'd like to see some great technical minds attack _this_ technico-societal issue.

Stop letting people externalize the cost of disposable goods. If you close the loop and force the market to reflect this cost, you'll get behavior that avoids it.

This is a challenging issue to solve with legislation because you're adding costs somewhere. It's hard to get voter support for policies that pressure consumers, and harder to get politicians to support policies that challenge industry.

To solve it from within the market itself, you'd need a corporation to leave lots of money on the table by producing longer-lasting goods at price points competitive with cheapo brands. Inventive business models can help with this, but ultimately you either eat the cost of producing better goods for the same price or you make some scientific breakthroughs.

Hopefully the FTC suing D-Link will encourage LG (and other manufacturers) to properly support their devices: https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/blog/ftc-sues-d-link-over-route...

I'm signalling plans to stop purchasing anything from LG in 2017. This is going to be a security nightmare.

It gives me the impetus to set up another SSID that just loops-back every packet to its sender.

I was going to suggest not even associating them with an AP, but knowing how vendors code their software they'll probably overcome that 'problem' by having them search for and attach to the first open AP they find. So I might as well make that one be MyNullRoute.

What's the advantage of this instead of not connecting to any wifi networks?

Software that doesn't respect user settings. In this case, the fear is that wifi-capable devices may just associate with a random unsecured access point, on purpose but 'covertly', to send and/or receive unknown data, at the behest of the manufacturer.

The DDoS attacks of the future will to be caused by refrigerator, washing machines, TVs etc. along with surveilance cameras and routers. And the 2.4 GHz commercial band radio spectrum is going to get so crowded that legitimate WiFi shall be rendered useless.

This is probably the nastiest part of the whole Internet of Things hype. There is so much stuff that now comes with internet connected functionality that securing it all is simply not manageable. Sure, a household may demand that their smart thermostat keeps working reliably and securely, but how about the smart TV that's connected to WiFi, but is only used as a (classic) dumb screen? Or the talking doll the kids got for Christmas that talks back? (Yes, this is a thing!) Or the baby monitor? Or any other plug-and-play webcam?

All of these devices are by design capable of performing HTTP requests, and can be exploited to perform DDOS attacks. There is no economic incentive to keep these devices secure once the warranty runs out, yet hackers do have a lot of interest in hacking whole classes of devices.

It's not only the future, it's already happening. The Mirai botnet, mostly running on IoT devices, was used to perform massive DDoS attacks in 2016. This gives us a foretaste of what is to come when we can assume at least one vulnerable IoT device in more or less every household.

> Alexa isn't an inherently bad fit for a refrigerator

I think people are forgetting the purpose of a fridge. People already store food that doesn't need to be kept cool. They already throw out food based on dates stamped on packaging, not condition of the food. And they keep spoiled food in the back, forgotten. The fridge is a terribly mis-used kitchen device. So unless Alexa somehow develops a way to interact biologically with the contents, I do not see it as a good functional fit for that device.

> So unless Alexa somehow develops a way to interact biologically with the contents

This pipe dream overlaps with something I've wanted since I became a reluctant bodybuilder: an appliance to measure the macronutrients of a meal, or at least a viable, reasonably priced calorimeter.

Back in 2013 some LG TVs were caught scanning users' networks and connected drives.[1]

At the time I think LG said that this was a mistake. Even taking that in good faith I would still be wary of connecting any LG consumer appliance to my own home network.

[1] http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/11/lg-smart-tv-snooping...

I imagine my fridge showing me ads. 10 years ago, an idea that online ads will be put into offline software seemed ridiculous, but now that admob cr@p is being put into every piece of 'begware'

That's fine.. What's more of a problem is that the device will not have an open platform or even an open bootloader and be unsupported and obsolete in a few years.

Looking through their site the cheapest home applicances that LG sells are microwaves.

They cost on the order of 100USD for the cheapest models. The cheapest Wifi "IoT" microcontrollers are on the order of 1USD.

Seems like it might be a reasonable business move, even if it's just a box ticking exercise.

I'll be surprised if they do put them in their lowest end products though. Perhaps those product lines are stable and won't be updated in 2017?

It's not just about a microcontroller, it's also about developing the software and them supporting and maintaining it.

I guess I was looking for a lower bound. I'll be surprised if they can manage to implement this on their cheapest products.

You forget, we talk about IoT.

> developing the software

Oh quickly throw some shit together, not that much of a problem.

> supporting and maintaining it.

Haha good joke.

I look forward to the "we couldn't foresee the security risks, we cannot be held responsible" non-apology in 2022.

If you don't want your LG device to connect to anything, then don't feed it your SSID and password. (I don't have any unsecured networks in range of my house, so there's no way LG devices could connect without me doing something.)

I have a Samsung TV. I never hooked it up to my wifi, so it's a dumb device.

These type of try-hard (every appliance) efforts are crazy... The market hasn't demanded every appliance based on the sales of connected devices currently. I'd guess if they did do every appliance they quickly reverse and offer non connected devices very soon after.

As the article points out, their "smart fridge" costs more than a regular fridge plus all the electronics involved. This has been an ongoing problem with LG since they put a tablet in a refrigerator door and raised the price by about $1000.

A fridge with a glass door would be better.

Or if you want a techie solution, glass that can be toggled between fogged or not.

This is such an obvious (and obviously good) idea, there must be a reason it's not done. Is it because it's difficult to get glass with the right thermal insulation properties?

If you go to any convenience store, you'll see this exact solution keeping drinks cold. The problem is that the refrigeration unit has to be running all the time or heat will enter through the glass.

Heat via radiation? So would blinds not work?

Double- and triple-pane windows are a thing, so I doubt durability or cost is a problem. Are triple-pane windows that much worse than refrigerator doors?

No Door Storage? That could be a very good reason not for see through doors. Replacing them with glass makes it very difficult to see what is on the interior vs what is on the door.

Is that a valid headline, more from an English usage point of view. LG didn't threaten to do anything really. It is just that it can have bad unintended consequences.

It's totally valid and was obviously written with tongue firmly in cheek - the author (or their editor) is just having a little fun and suggesting that adding wifi to e.g. a stove is a consumer-hostile move.

Consumers have the luxury of voting with their money.

Only while there are comparable manufacturers offering devices with a feature set they do want.

I strongly doubt if the average western consumer has any problem of choice.

On that topic, Barry Schwartz has a very interesting TED talk, aptly titled: The Paradox Of Choice. [1]

PS. See the toothbrush phone example? Yeah, that is now a thing. [2]

[1] https://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_c...

[2] https://twitter.com/internetofshit/status/817531891494457345

Try and buy a small television that doesn't suck, I tried and couldn't find anything.

I think that's difficult to conclude. A good example might be the implementation of 'smart' features on televisions. I'd love to buy a no-nonsense television that I could simply plug in to an HDMI cable and have display whatever I throw at it. I have a cable box, AV receiver etc. that provide the necessary source content. But it still takes up to a minute for my TV to boot; it displays adverts; it needs software updates; it contains a microphone. That's a bunch of sully features I'd rather not have, but I can't exactly vote with my money here!

(It's technically possible to do that, but I'd have to pay a massive, huge premium for a mediocre product. I don't think that situation counts.)

Already it's getting difficult to find dummy versions of consumer appliances such as televisions. They all have Craproid or CrapOS now and all the bugs and problems, security breaches and vulnerabilities that come with it.

A fridge has a 10-20 year expected life span as it is. Anyone think that any manufacturer is seriously commited to maintaining software for that duration of time? In fact I'm going to speculate that having the software become unmaintained would be used as a marketing incentive to have people renew their fridges every couple of years.

No, currently they seem to be really bad at this, judging from cases like "Can't sign in to Google calendar on my Samsung refrigerator"[1].

But, isn't this exactly how big names get replaced by more modern and technologically savvy alternatives? or at least, the big names gets forced to adopt?

[1]. https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/calendar/Uhfp...

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