Steve Jobs Tells Germans to Blame Their Government for iPad Price Difference | Hacker News Reader

Steve Jobs Tells Germans to Blame Their Government for iPad Price Difference

macrumors.com

29 pointsmbateman57 comments

The headline makes it sound like Steve Jobs is being rude to Apple customers, but actually from the article, it seems like he's just curtly informing them of why the iPad price is 15 euros higher in Germany than in other european countries.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that he was being rude, I just paraphrased him.

I liked that he's frank about redirecting any potential criticism from Apple to the German government, where it belongs. I don't know that I've ever seen a CEO do this, directly to customers, without pulling any punches.

Jobs is quoted as saying:

Please educate yourself.

That seems rude to me. He might be responding to an equally rude complaint that was sent to him, but it still seems like bad PR to me.

I am loving his curt responses. Too many people on the internet are quick to complain without prior thought or research; nice to see them being put in their place.

It is the programmer still remains in him reminding people to "RTFM."

It's something I can get behind completely. People shouldn't be coddled like they're children, but if they act like one then being treated like one in return is the least one can do. =)

I see your point, and understand that it can be irritating to have constant criticism from a bunch of bloggers who probably need to do more research, yet it still isn't good for public relations to have such curt, almost rude responses. It doesn't make Apple look any better.

besides, meddling in politics of foreign state... not very smart thing to do for a CEO

Telling people why a product is more expensive (or, seems more expensive) is not "meddling in politics". He either tells them the reason, or he ignores the email. I'd prefer the former, personally.

"Blame your government" - that's not meddling in foreign politics?

Some Apple apologists need to get out of Reality Distortion Field.

No, if he'd said "Blame the government and make sure you vote for the SDP in the next election" then that might be meddling in foreign politics.

How would you say it?

If Apple equalized the price in Germany then they would actually be selling in Germany for less than the rest of the EU... They don't see a pfennig of that tax.

You mean they don't see a cent of that tax :)

People in Europe usually have the VAT included in the advertised price, so I can see how people would be getting their hopes up when seeing the american prices.

OK, but the price differences are not just "before tax" vs "after tax". For instance, a friend of mine broght me this N900 from USA to Spain. After-tax comparison: 400€ vs. 600€.

this absolutely freaks us out in US - that we never see actual prices we're supposed to pay, only share of what seller is supposed to get (before paying her taxes).

As annoying as it can be I actually think its a good thing that the amount you're paying in taxes is listed separately because then you are forced to see what you're paying in taxes.

I live outside Chicago and in some areas around me the sales tax is >10% (10.25 in the city I believe). The fact that you see what your paying in taxes every time you buy something makes it harder for the politicians to raise it too high.

Edit: Fixed Typo

VAT is always listed separately in Europe as well (on the receipt) - it just has to be included in the advertised price.

How often do people actually read their receipt?

It's good that they do have the charge listed but I still feel like most people are not aware how much of their bill went to the VAT whereas in general around here you can't possibly miss it.

I can only talk about Germany, and any change in VAT, be it the raise from 16 to 19% in 2007, or a recent cut to 7% for restaurants and hotels, generally gets a lot of publicity.

People may not be reminded about it constantly, but they are definitely aware of it.

of course, it's so easy to raise tax when everyone knows it's at 18% across the country, not when nobody has any friggin idea what your municipality's tax is!

If you bought an iPad (or pretty much any other item online) it is unlikely you would spend any taxes on it. If you did, many states require the purchaser to report and pay the taxes themselves, not the retailer.

Additionally, sales taxes vary widely state-to-state, so for an that has the same MSRP everywhere in the US, it seems to make sense not to advertise actual tax amount.

In the US, Apple calculates sales tax based on your location and displays it before you buy.

If you buy it from apple.com, Apple will apply state sales tax for your state of residence (if Apple has a physical store in your state). Local sales taxes are your responsibility.

EU governments sure do love their taxes.

Hell, yeah! And I’m happy about it. High taxes but a lot of bang for the buck.

well, taxes in germany are now going to be shipped overnight to greece, where they will be used to pay back german banks. I'm starting to feel kind of robbed, honestly

Actually, the money will end up getting rerouted to Deutsche Bank and other German banks. Germany has promoted consumption within the EU. It is the number 1 (or number 2) exporter in the world and most of its exports go to other EU countries. If Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, England, etc. go down guess who suffers too. There is an imbalance in the system and it needs correcting or else Germany will suffer along with the rest of these countries.

I guess some action is needed. However, it was not so long ago that huge sums of money were spent throughout Europe to avoid a collapse, or so they told us, and here we are again opening our pockets, and greece may be only the first one in line. That kind of bothers me.

(and I'm not implying that german politicians are the only sane ones or something. They are probably so reticent because of fear of losing an election)

It would bother me too. My girlfriend is German and she's upset with the bailout. My point to her is that if the whole world were like Germans who would do the buying?

> And I’m happy about it. High taxes but a lot of bang for the buck.

Actually, the per-capita taxes in the EU are about the same as the per-capita taxes in the US. (That's dollars in taxes collected per person, not rates.)

There appear to be two differences - the per-capita GDP is much higher in the US (we have more money after taxes) and folks in the EU get better services for their money.

The latter suggests that giving the US govt more money isn't likely to be a good idea.

The biggest single reason for that is the amount of money that the US spends on their 'defense', it is much higher than European countries on a per-capita basis.

> The biggest single reason for that is the amount of money that the US spends on their 'defense', it is much higher than European countries on a per-capita basis.

The "about the same" numbers are federal spending only, of which about 15% is defense for the US. US state and local govts spend a bit less than the federal govt, but more than enough to swamp the defense numbers and push the per-capita tax burden in the US well over that of the typical EU country, where the "not national" govts don't spend nearly as much.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/

Note that there's some double-counting going on. Cities and states get a lot of money from the federal govt. That money is counted as both federal and state/local spending.

Not in the UK.

Pish, I don't mind the taxation in this country it's only typically Tory voters that complain and from the last elections that's only 37% of the country.

Please educate yourself. Nick Clegg has been calling for tax cuts for years. http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/sep/15/libdemconfere...

It's typically only Labour voters (who are either public sector workers or who pay minimal tax anyway) who are happy for other people to pay more tax.

There are tax cuts and then there are tax cuts. The ones that the Lib Dems are offering only really apply to the poorest within our society. The Lib Dems are only looking to cut tax on earnings UP TO 10k. Sure this helps everyone but it is much more likely that the tax burden would land on the higher earners if the Lib Dems were in power.

If you have followed UK election history you would be well aware that in last election the Lib Dems were pushing for a 50% band on higher earners (which Labour have since implemented?!?) and a local income tax to replace council tax.

The Tories on the other hand (in this election) are offering tax cuts for the middle and upper classes. They propose that inheritance tax band on estates should only start at 1 million. However the more important tax cut is around corporation tax where they propose (and my did this make me chuckle) to give a teeny saving to small businesses and a larger saving to big business. It's even more interesting that the way they phrase this (when talking to the public) is spun in such a way that doesn't reveal this interesting fact (about the saving for big businesses being bigger).

Nothing much has changed. Tories are still about tax cuts for the wealthy where Lib Dem and Labour look more at distributing wealth. Tbh ever since New Labour the Lib Dems have looked more left leaning than Labour.

Furthermore here are some choice quotes from the article you referenced:

"The Lib Dems' existing tax pledge to cut 4p off income tax would be funded by hitting the rich by taxing capital gains at the same rate as income tax and closing tax loopholes. There would also be green taxes."

"As Make it Happen says, if you are very rich you will pay more. If you are not rich you will pay less. This is a progressive liberal and distinctive message."

well, judging from what some UK politicians are saying, UK will soon be even less part of EU than it sort of is now.

Every single major political party in the UK has stated they will work with Europe.

David Cameron of the Tories stated there would be no _further_ "giving up powers to Brussels". The other two stated that they wanted to work with Europe.

This results in no change by my reckoning.

GBP 14Bn/year says that's not a bad thing... And another GBP 60Bn/year if we scrap the Barnett Formula. That'll right all our economic woes, and not cost the English taxpayer a penny more.

until the debt get too high...

It seems to me that lowering taxes while not lowering spending is a distinctly American thing. Lowering spending is loathed by Americans and Europeans alike, but that’s arguably less of a problem if you also don’t always demand lower taxes. (I’m of course generalizing here, please take all I said with a grain of salt.)

America is well known for its propensity toward low taxes and a small debt.

US states sure do love theirs! down to every damn municipality.

I hope Volcker will prevail and US will get VAT finally.

If the US gets a VAT, we better get a lot of other taxes removed in the process.

My wish is that we simplify our tax system to the point where I don't need software and a tax attorney to figure out my taxes. I am not much into laws that require me to hire people / buy software to comply with (maybe, gotta love TurboTax audit insurance). I would prefer a flat-rate tax per taxpayer (skip all the marriage questions.

Sales tax in my municipality is less than half of UK's VAT, and food and clothing are exempt from it. You're right, I sure do love it.

VAT and sales tax are very different things. It would not be true to say something would cost more or less depending on whether sales tax or VAT was paid by the consumer.

Please educate yourself ;)

Food and childrens clothing are also exempt from UK VAT.

If I understand correctly this leads to some bizarre inconsistencies; for instance bras up to a certain size (34B?) are "children's clothing" and untaxed, a fact which must cause dubious rejoicing among the less-endowed women of Britain.

Also I seem to recall that some foods are taxed differently depending on whether you intend to eat them in or take them away -- even for things where it makes no difference to how they package them. If you tell Pret A Manger that you're going to take your chocolate mousse away but wind up sitting down and eating it in the store, you're breaking the law. (Not sure whether that's the VAT or some other issue).

To be pedantic, food (except for, roughly, `luxury' and catered foods), children's clothing, and books, amongst other things, are zero-rated, rather than exempt (a separate category which includes medical treatment and education).

Some plain foods have zzero vat. More luxurous food is taxed. This is important when you think of jaffa cakes, are they a biscuit or a cake? If they are a buscuit, then they don't have vat, if cake, then the price goes up

Actually, instead of a VAT tax, how about the US starts advertising the price of an item with the tax already calculated in? That way when I am going to the store and I buy a loaf of bread and it says $2.50 that is what I actually pay. Or when I go buy a new laptop for $499 that is ACTUALLY what I pay.

Shopping in The Netherlands where I am from is much simpler, I can keep a running tally in my head and not have to worry about getting to the register and having another X amount added on top because the local government wants their share, makes managing money so much more complicated.

What makes you think a VAT will stop municipal and state sales taxes? States and cities will not easily give up this revenue. More likely, we'll just have VAT in addition to everything else we now have.

Yes, our politicians love their taxes. Unfortunately for us a very high portion goes to nationalized militarism. We are getting the bang for our buck but it's in form of a military power and not in the form of taking care of each other.

My hope is that the Pentagon will get its budget slashed.

Apple always charges more for EU customers, usually replacing the $ for a €. When €1 = $1.50, I don't believe it's the tax, and instead feel like I'm getting screwed.

Why the downvotes?

Rmc is right. Go to Apple store, take a look at any Apple product and see for yourself.

For example, the 13" 2.4 GHz MBP is 1200 USD in US. In Europe, it is cca 1050 EUR _without_ VAT (cca 1250 EUR with VAT), which makes it around 1350 USD (and 1600 USD with VAT!). Nice 10% pre-tax price increase.

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