Comment by nemo44x | Hacker News Reader

Comment by nemo44x | Hacker News Reader

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That's right. If anything flying can be the most dignified way of traveling. I just came back from a trip to Europe and was upgraded so I had access to a lounge with "free" massages, nice food and drinks and then boarded a plane where I had a seat that could be made into a bed and also had a table my wife and I could eat together at. And then enjoy the cheese cart and have a seat at the bar for another cocktail before laying down for a cat nap.

The point is airlines are giving people options. Flying is unbelievably cheap if you want it to be but you get what you pay for - a safe flight in a moderately uncomfortable seat. People wanted cheap and they're getting it.

I wish more airlines offered more classes of service though. Flying United to Europe you either have crummy economy (exit rows are fine but the service still is poor) or rather expensive first. More options for mid-tier service where you have larger, more comfortable seating and nice food options similar to Virgins "Premium Economy" service which is is quite nice at a reasonable ask for those that find a couple hundred dollars extra worth it. I find it worth it for 8 hour+ flights to have some extra comfort so I feel better when landing.

You and the grandparent are dancing around the increased costs. I just checked prices for the last flight I took to Europe, and the difference between economy and first class is (roughly) TEN TIMES. Hey, if $9,000 is to your budget what $900 is to mine, awesome! I've had first class once, for business, and, sure, it was great. I just wish they'd give us another couple of inches of legroom in economy. Just 2 inches! Take out, like 2 or 3 rows, and expand. I'm 6' and 250 lbs, and when someone reclines in front of me, the seat is literally 6 inches from my face! If they'd charge the extra for taking out those rows, the increase to the prices of the rest of the tickets would be minimal. I think they cram us in as tightly as humanly possible (literally) so that they can cajole more people into the first-class cabin and it's attendant price. It's not just awful; it's manipulative!

I'm with you. I have issues with the literal class dynamic of airlines regardless. But when I look at how much more I'd be paying per hour for a modestly more comfortable chair, I quickly get to "no way, not ever" territory. Hell, when I had my wisdom teeth out, it was only $400/hr for the general anesthetic and I said no to that. If I ever spend thousands just for my personal comfort, it's going to be on something I end up owning and using for years.

> Hell, when I had my wisdom teeth out, it was only $400/hr for the general anesthetic and I said no to that.

You're a brave man. How was it?

i had mine taken out with local+nitrous (as opposed to going completely under) because the anesthesiologist wasn't in that day (apparently an oral surgeon can do the gas, but not the knockout drugs). i remember the whole thing. it was surprising how much force they used but other than that it was fine. i remember i had my ipod with me and tripped out to music while getting my face drilled.

as an adult it's probably better because there's no recovery time, they just take the nitrous away and you're good to drive yourself home (or to the pharmacy, to pick up your pain meds that you're definitely going to need) 2 minutes later.

the 2-3 weeks following extraction are 1000x worse than the actual procedure, which isn't bad at all.

Interesting, I didn't find the recovery very bad at all. I had general anesthetics and a script for oxycontin, but my mom was overprotective and wouldn't let me take anything more than ibuprofen. I don't recall even needing the ibuprofen after a day or two.

I thought it was fine. It was only 45 minutes, and I thought it was all pretty interesting. Thanks to the local anesthetic, there was very little pain. The parts I really didn't like all came over the next few days, but ice cream and video were enough to get me through.

Oh, I had only local anesthetic for mine, too. I got confused. I thought you meant without any anesthetic. It wasn't bad at all. I was just surprised at how much force they used. It sounded like hell, too, but no big deal.

I think they cram us in as tightly as humanly possible (literally) so that they can cajole more people into the first-class cabin and it's attendant price.

Domestic first-class cabins in the US have been shrinking (fewer seats), for what it's worth. And while international business-class cabins still usually have 20+ seats in them (and sometimes much more), you're correct in noting that they're much more expensive in relation.

The economics of running an airline hasn't changed. People still -- despite everything they complain about as a consequence -- shop exclusively for the lowest possible fare they can find anywhere, and damn the legroom and extra fees. Airlines, which need to maximize the revenue coming from the back end of the plane in order to stay profitable, know this and have responded by squeezing in more seats (witness the number of carriers now going to ten-across seating on international aircraft, switching to "slimline" seats and shaving more inches out of the legroom in order to add another row or two) and unbundling as much as they can into separate upsells to preserve that low advertised fare.

Sometimes you can get a good deal on international business class.

I recently picked up a business class seat from Australia to LA for 4x the economy price.

Well worth it for the short trip and being able to get some sleep and work done in air.

I was able to score business class from Beijing to LA for $2k one way; at the time the lowest one way ticket I could find was $1500 (same as round trip, and we weren't coming back), so it worked well, especially with a pregnant wife.

It's not always that much more expensive but yeah sometimes the asks are crazy. A year ago I booked a flight on Virgin Atlantic in Economy and they offered an upgrade to "Upper Class" (their term) for $500 roundtrip to Europe per person. That was great value.

United has "Economy Plus" which is more legroom. I'm 6'2" and I find it fine. My advice is to upgrade to that and pay extra for the exit row. If there are 2 exit rows then book the one behind the one in front. You can't recline into an exit row so with the second set of exit rows you get a ton of space and no one that can recline into you.

I always upgrade to economy plus but it's only marginally worth it. Yeah, I can actually get things out of my bag (instead of smashing my face against the seat in front of me and fumbling blindly), but it doesn't solve the elbow room issue which is the real problem on planes for anyone of average build.

Business class (as opposed to first) is still super nice and usually significantly less than 9k.

> Just 2 inches! Take out, like 2 or 3 rows, and expand.

The problem is that increasing the other basic economy tickets by the lost revenue (even all seats regardless of class) prices the seats out of competition, not to mention the costs in actually ripping the seats out, moving all the other seats, and getting the plane recertified/inspected.

> when someone reclines in front of me, the seat is literally 6 inches from my face

Serious question: would 8 inches be any better?

> I think they cram us in as tightly as humanly possible (literally) so that they can cajole more people into the first-class cabin and it's attendant price. It's not just awful; it's manipulative!

I think the intersection of people who can afford first class but who would consider taking basic economy with 8" of room but not 6" is exceedingly small.

>I just wish they'd give us another couple of inches of legroom in economy. Just 2 inches! Take out, like 2 or 3 rows, and expand. I'm 6' and 250 lbs, and when someone reclines in front of me, the seat is literally 6 inches from my face!

They offer this service on most airlines, it's called economy plus on United.

I love a couple inches more wide. Maybe instead of a 3-3 row, they could sell a 2-3 row. Or just make the damn planes wider.

Even when I was skin and bones, 169 lbs and 6'2", I couldn't comfortably fit in these 17 inch wide seats. My shoulders are too wide. Now that I've plumped up, it's basically impossible.

Hell, I'd just appreciate a thin seat divider that clearly makes sure I'm not spilling into someone else's room.

If anything flying can be the most dignified way of traveling.

Hmm, I don't think first class on an aircraft has anything on the better ocean liners in the 'dignified' stakes - if you've got the time to burn.

>People wanted cheap and they're getting it.

Did you read the article? Because the entire point of the article is that people aren't actually getting it for cheaper.

The article's argument is based on a known-false assumption.

It assumes that people will automatically buy the next-highest fare bucket in order to avoid the horrors of Basic Economy, but the history of the airline business in the US over the past couple decades suggests that the vast majority of travelers will complain about how horrible the low-fare experience is, then book it anyway.

You missed the point—when airlines introduce Basic Economy fares, they don't drop the price, they instead drop services. So at best, you're paying the same for poorer service, otherwise you're paying more for the same service. Either way, the cost of those services is going up.

The article offered only one anecdote of a previous lowest fare price becoming the basic-economy fare price. Meanwhile, it presents as its main thesis that most people will spend more to not get basic economy, which is demonstrably false.

The thing is, it doesn't matter if people will spend more or not. Say you regularly purchase something, and pay $10/lb for it. And you usually buy a 6 pound package. So you spend $60.

And the one day you go into the store, and they tell you "We just introduced a new Basic Economy package!". It's still only $60, but now it's 5 pounds instead of 6. Or, for $12 more, you can upgrade to your previous 6 pound package.

May you pay more to upgrade, maybe you pay the same—but either way, what used to be $10/lb is now $12/lb. The price went up.

You're still trying to generalize from a single anecdote provided in the article. That doesn't work out.

I think you're missing the fact that they were offering better service than the discount airlines but at the same price. It was the only way to compete when most people who travel infrequently purchase strictly on cheapest price. In effect they were offering a better service than people were paying for because they had to.

Now they are finally updating their seating and policy to be in-line with what the discount airlines offer. So they aren't charging more for economy. They're pricing it inline with the level of service you get, something they weren't able to do before.

    > Flying United to Europe you
    > either have crummy economy 
    > or rather expensive first

Mmm, actually it's economy or business, whatever brand name they're giving it — it'll come up as a business fare in flight booking systems. Genuine First is becoming rarer and rarer (excepting what US domestic routes describe as that), as more and more airlines follow Virgin Atlantic's original lead of a business class (very almost) as good as First, and no First. Even the ME3 are cutting back (Etihad's The Residence as an exception) — Qatar have a First Class cabin only on their A380, and have nixed it from their A350s, Dreamliners, 777s etc

Yeah I was just using "First Class" as an enhanced level of service where you can expect a bed, decent food options served on actual plates and other niceties like a comfort kit and other things.

I think they called it "Business First" before they switched to "Polaris".

I guess my poorly worded answer was trying to highlight a further collapse in options at the high end.

Premium Economy cabins (better than domestic first class but not as nice as lie-flat business class seats) are coming to both Delta and American international flights in 2017.

That sounds excellent. I'm a United person (easiest airport to get to and they dominate it - Delta doesn't even have a terminal. EWR if you're interested) and I'm not sure they do. They are rolling out a new first class service which looks nice but no idea on improving to a Premium Economy cabin.

Delta has impressed me lately. I may make the switch and just deal with the extra haul to JFK which is about 20 minutes more for me if United can't or won't improve their lousy, outdated aircraft for international flights to Europe.

United does fly nicely outfitted aircraft to Asia and Australia but I don't get out that way nearly as much.

I live close to JFK, and rarely fly out of EWR for similar reasons as you, in the opposite direction. The Delta terminals are pretty nice; terminal 4 is looong, but much nicer than terminal 1.

United has not announced plans that I know of to add premium economy, but both United and AA nowadays tend to copy Delta, since Delta's been making a lot of money.

Of the big three legacy carriers, Delta is currently the best combination of price and reliability. You know they want a bit of extra money for the slightly nicer experiences, and you know what you're going to get out of it.

For international travel, though, I've been starting to avoid US carriers entirely in favor of flying the other country's airline (which is something you can do when living near a major international hub -- SFO, in my case). Often it's another small step up, and sometimes it's a big step up, compared to the US airlines.

I travel enough where it only makes sense to use a domestic carrier. United is the most convenient for me so that's that.

You're right though, airlines like British Airways and Virgin Atlantic are quite a bit more nice. United treats me pretty well as I have the highest status, however.

Sadly the Delta product is more of a rebranding of Comfort Plus... more food service but not anything very comfortable. If they would just offer the equivalent of domestic Delta First as a premium economy that would be a start for me!

Those upgrades don't exist for normal people anymore. They used to upgrade people just for the hell of it. I've got status on an airline and STILL never get upgrades. You've gotta travel constantly to ever be eligible for an upgrade.

You've basically got to fly a lot AND fly full fare refundable tickets (easily twice as much as regular tickets). So it's basically only useful for business travelers who are on business.

Once I got on United Gold, I could pick weird flights (undesireable times, maybe the shittier airport) that would automatically upgrade a full ticket to first class. But a full fare economy is basically the same price as a non-refundable first class. So it only works if a business is picking up the tab.

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