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Comment by mingdingo | Hacker News Reader

As well as put in place some animal cruelty laws. You would hold your head in your hands if you saw what happens. For dogs, for example, they will tie their front legs together BEHIND their back (YES, DISLOCATING THEM), and leave them tied up like that with a tin can over their mouth until they're ready to deal with them. They'll even hold the dogs legs like a "handle" while carrying them around. I've never seen cruelty like it...

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They should pass laws, but so should the west. The poultry/egg and fishing industry is unquestionably unethical. And much of the dairy and beef industry would have to improve as well.

Again, not trying to say China shouldn't. But am pointing out that it's a bit of throwing a stone in a glass house.

I totally agree the West needs to improve animal welfare even further. But SOME cruelty laws are better than NONE, which is why I bring up China more. But you're totally right, there's awful stuff going on here, too.

Here's an interesting point: do we know that the poultry/fish industries can absorb the cost of "humanely" raiding these animals without collapsing? Assuming the money is there and this law would not kill an industry, how can we ensure that these cost increases are not passed on to the consumer?

Living in the US is expensive enough. Would you guarantee "ethical eggs" if the cost was fewer poor people could afford them? I am not happy that we treat poultry and fish the way we do, but if that means keeping those products affordable the I'd take that over increasing the welfare of an animal.

At the very least I'd start with the more intelligent animals. Pigs in gestation crates is awful.

Why do you want to "ensure that these cost increases are not passed on to the consumer"? Isn't that a major problem already (people not paying the real cost of their food)?

I can appreciate the need for cheap protein, but I don't see why it should be addressed in isolation from any other form of social inequality.

I see no reason why the government should be subsidizing someone's steak, bacon or fish. Eggs and dairy? Yes, but only for the vulnerable.

Maybe Americans would not consume (per capita) more than most nations if food was more expensive.

> do we know that the poultry/fish industries can absorb the cost of "humanely" raiding these animals without collapsing?

Enter the Tardis, go back 200 years and replace "poultry/fish" with "cotton/tobacco" and "eggs" with "fabric".

I don't think the industry needs to absorb those costs. Food is not expensive, we are just too stupid to eat it. It is ridiculously cheap since the industrialization of its production:

* We got used to only eating the very best. Lots of fruit does never reach the consumer because it does not look "nice" enough.

* We don't plan anymore. "Chicken today, we'll use the stock tomorrow for $this and the day after we can use the leftovers of $this for $that." That too comes with a high price.

* We became squeamish: A lot of meat that was regularly eaten just 50 years ago completely disappeared from our menus (tongue, liver, kidney, heart, tail, testicles, intestines). Since you are already paying for those parts, why not eat them?

* We have sacrificed the local workers' kitchen for the reliability of fast food chains: 365 days the same menu. That means 365 days of constant quality - pretty expensive when compared to the chef who goes to the market every day, picks what is good and affordable (which usually translates to "in season") and offers a good, simple and home cooked meal for $2.

* We are completely detached from our food: Who can, without googling, name 3 varieties of apples, how they taste and where they are used best? How much bread does a 10 by 10 meter field of wheat yield?

And by "we" I mean the US and Europe, in most other parts of the world people have a much, much healthier relation with their food.

Of course, increased costs will be passed onto consumers. Who else are they going to be passed on to? The magic money tree in the sky?

I'm not really squeamish, and I'm cognisant of the cultural difference but.. I would caution people against image searching for tied up dogs in the context of China unless you're prepared for some pretty shocking stuff.

I know, but I don't think very many people know this even exists. That's the worst part about this practice -- it's so horrible that it's too horrible to even share. As much as I hate it, I know I can't share pictures of this on Facebook because people will likely hate me more than they hate what's going on.

The way that the Chinese treat animals is despicable. We in the US aren't far off, but they take it to another level.

Yeah if China became like the (highly imperfect) US it would still be a major win.

I guess it is cultural? You often also hear animal cruelty stories from their zoos:

https://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/169fyr/chinese_zoogoer...

There is also growing sympathy for animals in China, in my experience, but it's a few generations behind the West. My family just moved back to the US from 5 years there.

(1) A story: My two younger daughters, probably 9 and 11 at the time, were on the street in Chengdu near our apartment, and they saw a puppy, probably stray. A granny was out with her toddler grandson, and when they saw the puppy too, the granny brought her grandson over and physically swung his feet at the puppy to kick it. She was teaching him to kick a stray dog. My daughters were shocked that someone would "teach a child to kick dogs".

(2) China is still very much recovering from PTSD as a nation, from the events of the 60s and 70s. It will take another couple generations for the panic over survival to fully recede, I imagine. Animal rights are a luxury compared to survival (in people's minds).

(3) Change comes extremely fast in China -- people are very connected and can collectively shift their opinions and outlook in a heartbeat, when they're ready, thanks in part to WeChat, and in part to culture, which inculcates rapid adaptability to changing conditions.

(4) On the other hand, China is still 40-50% rural, where animals are livestock and not pets. That will likely not change as long as people eat meat! (Or at least change very slowly -- see US meat industry for example.)

have you ever been in a farm? it sounds really cruel, yes, but thats quite similar to the majority of the meat production... sadly :(

Yes, i have been and have seen or heard anything like that.

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