Ebikes: I Sing the Ride Electric
huffingtonpost.com
huffingtonpost.com
E-bikes have the potential to revolutionize urban transportation, particularly in European cities but we are being stopped here by heavy regulation.
To be road legal in most European cities an e-bike needs to 1. Be less than 250 watts, and: 2. Only work when you are actively pedaling, otherwise it should come to a halt and, 3. Stop powering the user once it reaches 25kmph.
If you break any of those rules you need to have a motorbike license and have the e-bike licensed (which is practically impossible). These restrictions are unnecessary and heavy handed. There should be some flexibility in the law allowing someone to use a low to medium power e-bike without being forced to pedal and being let drive at a reasonable speed. Every bike used is a car off the road. I've written to my local transportation minister who replied to say that they have no intention of changing the law anytime soon which is a real shame.
Easing the restrictions too much results in near-motorbike performance in trails and bike lanes shared with human powered riders.
Well there we got a easy-to-fix problem. I never turn of the light, and its not like a led bike light is going to A), decrease travel time, B) ruin the environment.
Is there a good reason why the light isn't always on when the ignition (ie key) is turned?
For the market to really take off there should be a maintenance free, complete solution. One of the many things would be that the lights are integrated to the rest of the electrics.
Also one could imagine removing most of the moving parts of a bike: No chain or gears (use a dynamo and a motor). Steering wheel is probably not needed if you have some kind of electronic self-balancing mechanism (like the Segway). You could arrange the wheels side by side instead of front and back to make the whole machine much smaller. Integrate the bike lock into the bike so you don't have to carry a separate lock, with lock/unlock controlled by your cellphone. Integrate the lights into the chassis and make them work automatically. Fewer moving parts => less maintenance => cheaper to buy and operate.
I'm not sure how you'd remove the handlebars and still allow steering, one key piece of bicycle steering is counter steering -- you actually steer left to tilt the bike over so you can go to the right. (for gentler turns you can shift your body weight, but if you need to make a sudden turn to avoid an obstacle, you use countersteering)
Likewise, I don't see how you'd have 2 side by side wheels on a "bike" that's designed to go 30mph+, how would you stop quickly without cartwheeling?
> Likewise, I don't see how you'd have 2 side by side wheels on a "bike" that's designed to go 30mph+, how would you stop quickly without cartwheeling?
I guess you'd stop the motor and the electronic self-balancing would do the rest (in a very hand-waving way, but Segways are an existence proof that something like this is possible, although perhaps not at 30mph).
https://endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/EBike_Efficiency#Dete...
And that's just for the motor, ignoring losses in the generator.
Electric bikes don't need perfect efficiency, the Specialized Turbo S has a 700W-hour battery and gives 30 - 60 miles of range (2 - 4 hours at 15mph). A human pedaling at 15mph puts out around 100W, so even if the motor is only 50% efficient, the bike can still travel for 50 miles at that rate on one charge.
With a Segway, you stand well over the wheels and can shift your butt (and center of gravity) as far to the rear as possible to make an emergency stop. I don't see how you'd do that with anything resembling a seated bicycle.
This is a perfectly good lightweight electric motorcycle claiming to be an "e-bike".[2] It doesn't belong on a sidewalk or bike path. That's a motor vehicle.
[1] https://www.electricbike.com/california-ebike-laws/ [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsoznIpK05s
I want more than 750w of power, not to go faster, but to get up to speed faster after a stop sign/etc. If we could more quickly accelerate up to the limit, we won't be impeding traffic as badly, and it's less of a burden to actually come to a complete stop.
But the real fix for that is bidirectional bike lanes on as many streets as possible, even if they're single-direction for cars.
I wouldn't use a bike to speed but mostly to even efforts so I don't sweat too much uphill, and can enjoy 25kmh at 80% the usual efforts.
Anybody here who is interested in an e-bike should strongly consider building up an existing bike rather than dropping $4k on one of the ones mentioned in this article. All the ones mentioned in the article are underpowered and overpriced.
I built a front-suspension mountain bike with a mid-drive motor called a BBSHD. Setup of the bike with the motor kit took about 3 hours and there were no major issues. Some custom tools might be needed to remove the bottom bracket, a bike shop would likely charge less to do it for you than the tools cost.
Last bit of advice, if you do get a DIY kit, make sure to get a high-quality 18650 battery pack. Don't go LiPo and certainly don't go lead-acid. Your battery pack will last longer if you don't always charge it to 100%, but you should charge it to 100% the first half dozen cycles to balance the batteries.
The folks that made that video are probably the biggest DIY kit sellers and a big (and controversial) force in the e-bike community. I bought my kit from them including the battery pack.
First: remove the front derailleur (you'll likely have to break the chain to do this, your chain may have a quick-link, otherwise you'll need a chain breaker tool, check YouTube for instructions), remove the shifter cable all the way up to the handlebars, remove the shifter from the handlebars. This mid-drive only has one sprocket on the front, and you retain the stock gears on the back.
Next: remove the pedals, crank arms, and cranks aka front sprockets. Then remove the bottom bracket (special tool may be needed here).
The motor slides right in the hole, you cinch it down on one side, re-attach crank arms and pedals and chain, and from there it's a matter of plugging everything in and a little cable management. Zip ties will be needed.
Here's an incredible riding video to motivate you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZrleBFAleQ
Anybody remembers Street Hawk ? :)
But they sell 3000 watt motors that can easily reach 50 mph. If you get clocked by a radar gun going 50 mph on a bike there is no amount of reasoning that will not get your bike impounded as an illegal/unregistered moped. To understand the equivalence 750 watts is approximately 1 horsepower so a 3000 watt motor is 4 hp. The average 49cc moped/scooter outputs 2-5 hp so it makes sense they would make you register an ebike with that much power as a moped
So, that 1000W motor is, in theory, as fast as my sprint, but for a much longer time period. And also in excess of the speed limit on a residential street.
Bonus fun fact: in my state, you can't get a DUI on an e-bike because it is not a "motor vehicle".
FWIW, on the bottom is a sticker that says "750W".
That bike has 1.75" tires and I've got big 3" wide tires, and I'm only running about 10-12psi, with front suspension sucking up what feels like half of my pedal power, so rolling resistance is much higher and efficiency is much lower for me.
The "efficiency" is calculated as watt-hours per mile. You'll see different numbers depending on all sorts of factors (pedaling, speed, terrain, tires), but we can just hand-wave it all away (science!) and say 20wh/mile. That gives you about 15 miles and me about 35.
I've only run the battery down once so far, and that was only from a 90% charge, with a lot of mud, snow, and general screwing around. The battery cut out at just over 25 miles.
The bike you linked has a 250w motor. Running it at 100% for an hour, if you were able to average 12.5mph for that time, that gives you 20wh/mile.
Based on the watt-hours we calculated earlier, and the manufacturer's claim of 30 miles, we have to assume they're figuring 25mph at 250w of power. This is technically possible according to (http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesSpeed_Page.html) but clearly we're in "best case scenario" land.
- LiPo cells are really LiIon cells, the name is misleading. There exist true LiPo cells but unless you're a battery researcher you probably don't have one.
- 18650 batteries _are_ LiIon batteries (just as LiPo batteries are) they're just a specific form factor: a 65mm long cylinder with diameter 18mm. (Technically, 18650 is just a form factor, so you can have a non-LiIon 18650 - and I have two non LiIon 18650 cells - but it's exceedingly rare for an 18650 to be non-LiIon and I don't believe you can buy them.)
- Pretty much all batteries are only made in extremely large amounts and sold to large companies for either industrial, automotive, or consumer electronic uses. 18650s are made for industrial and automotive uses. RC, e-bikes, vape pens, etc are just a blip on the radar compared to the enormous battery consumption by industrial, automotive, or consumer electronic uses. This means that none of the battery companies make cells for these uses. This means that the companies that make battery packs for RC uses or e-bikes are making packs out of leftover cells from larger companies. If you buy, for example, a pack online for your quadcopter, it is probably made by a factory that takes 10 cell-phone, or laptop, or power drill cells and puts them together.
- Because there are space/weight losses associated with getting the reaction to happen in a cellphone battery sized space, and there are losses from packing ten cellphone packs together, "LiPo" packs are generally a bad idea.
- However, 18650 cells are relatively space/weight efficient to begin with, and there are a bunch of large companies pouring many billions of dollars into improving their 18650 format battery processes, so they're by far the best thing to use when you're concerned about weight/power/capacity.
- Lead acid packs are, like you said, a horrible idea, unless you have strange constraints. If you need the ability to treat them horribly, or need high power, get lithium ferrophosphate cells. If you need to treat them horribly, need high power, AND need extremely low cost, then lead-acid cells may be your best bet.
- Building your own battery packs will save you an enormous amount of money. If you don't like working with electricity, hiring someone else to build your packs will save you a bit less money, but it's definitely worth it. When you build your own packs, you know what you're getting, as the vast majority of these pack websites overcharge you for fake cells. I build very large packs occasionally. If anyone's curious on how to build their own, or wants sources to find good cells cheap, my email's in my profile.
My girlfriend bought an electric bike four years ago, but that was a little too early, and when we moved to a place with stairs the electric bike had to go. But the person who bought it on Craigslist loves it and rides it to drop her kid off at daycare, then to work.
If you haven't ridden a pedal-assist electric bike, you should stop by your local bike shop and try one out. They're quite remarkable, but in a way that is difficult to appreciate over text. I personally don't need one and ride a Novarra Gotham (https://www.rei.com/product/888337/novara-gotham-bike-2016), but I see the appeal and think that these will eventually take off, maybe sooner than is widely expected.
There are various problems or trade-offs, which I'm sure people will point out in this thread, but the cost-benefit is there or getting there.
Everyone I know who commutes to work on a bike has been in an injury accident, ranging from bad cuts and bruises to broken bones and brain injuries. When you combine the basic lack of courtesy from car drivers, the inability to see bikes compared to cars, and the exposed nature of a bike rider compared to a car, the danger is simply too great for many people (myself included) to take.
Unless we get lots of dedicated bike roads where you never have to interact with cars, I don't see how this problem is solvable. As ebikes get faster and more powerful, the danger is going to increase rather than decrease. This is the same reason I don't ride a motorcycle; while it would be efficient and quicker to commute on one, they are simply too dangerous.
We desperately need more of these. They exist in many places, but not nearly enough. They're also far cheaper to build & maintain than regular roads, needing less width or thickness, as well as zero paint, curbs, stop lights or most other things city streets require.
But I agree, more dedicated bike lanes would be great.
ETA: Oh! I see California now (as of last Jan. 1) allows 28-mph pedal-controlled bikes under the new "class 3" designation. Unfortunately, my bike still doesn't quite fit in this category, as it's throttle-controlled. Hmm -- it's not clear to me why that distinction is that important.
[0] http://www.nomadcyclespdx.com/electric-bicycle-conversion-sy...
Especially given that I do not see how self driving cars could decrease traffic congestion problems. A self driving car takes as much space as a "regular car", so only ways I can imagine autonomous cars reducing traffic are:
1. People ride less with cars. 2. People share rides more. 3. Autonomous cars are significantly more efficient finding free parking spaces, so they reduce the amount of cars looking for a free parking spot. 4. They do not need to be parked, so parking space is given to moving cars (and this actually helps, not increases, congestion). 5. Autonomous cars can drive in less space and/or are smaller.
Of course, any of these claims being wrong attribute to increased congestion due to autonomous cars. And to be honest, I find it unlikely that any of those claims would be correct in the sense that it would materially reduce the congestion problems.
(Well, maybe one more option came to my mind that might actually help. If the autonomous cars would be able to increase the capacity of crossroads by somehow communicating with each others like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pbAI40dK0A )
How do cyclists and people walking handle that type of intersection?
And there is a limit how far uniform driving helps. If the capacity is full, it is full.
However, as an avid mountain biker I hope we can keep them as far from our local trail systems as possible. They're destructive to the trails, and allow people to end up on trails far ahead of their skill level. Running out of battery 3 miles from home on a city street where you hop on a bus is one thing, running out 3 miles down a steep hill away from civilization with the sun going down is how inexperienced people get killed.
Ebikes are mopeds by another name, have been around for decades, and have never been allowed on trails. Lets keep it that way.
For about the price of two e-bikes, you can pick up a used Nissan Leaf or Mitsubishi i-MiEV that will do 50+ miles, seat 4+ people, is comfy and safe in any weather, and is clean / silent / zero emissions.
And for folks who want something more transit-friendly than a bike, you can buy electric scooters for jumping between bus stops and home and save a little bit of cash. Products like https://ecorecoscooter.com/why/
Electric motors are great, and offer up lots of different affordable middle grounds between "pure bicycling" and "burning lots of gas".
I used a Specialized for about a week, the level of effort was the same as walking, and almost as fast as driving (rush hour). Due to the rate limiter, it was <10% faster than I could achieve myself on a bike.
I would wholeheartedly recommend it to _anyone_ currently driving to work, it's a LOT cheaper than a car.
Personally, I went back to a regular bike, I wanted the exercise and found the rate limiter (19mph without a motorcycle license) to be too frustrating.
If you're riding a 30mph eBike on a bike trail that doesn't permit it and you have an accident with someone, you can expect to shoulder most of the liability, even if the other person did something like step in front of you. The same holds true with a skateboard, if you run your 20mph skateboard into the side of a car, you can expect to pay for the damages to the car (after you get out of the hospital) -- even if the car driver pulled out in front of you because he wasn't expecting a 20mph skateboard on the sidewalk.
Some things which went wrong with the bike before I abandoned it: punctures, chain falling off (3 times), rear derailleur completely destroyed itself, loose joints (everywhere and needed tightening almost every journey), left crank fell off (apparently very common on all bikes). I ended up riding with a complete toolkit.
There is a serious difference between the sort of bike you get at a department store and the sort of bike you can get at a bike ship in terms of component quality. Good components can last a ridiculous length of time. You can get puncture resistant tires if you are willing to pay the price.
Chains are still a maintenance weak spot for bikes (they shouldn't fall off). There are belt driven bikes that are supposed to be more reliable than chain driven bikes.
My human powered bike is in similar price range (should be a bit cheaper in the US) and I've had to do some maintenance on it. It has quality parts but chains and sprockets get wear and tear and needs to be compensated by small adjustments (derailleurs, chain tensioner, etc) and the occasional spare part.
I get my bike maintained at a bike shop about twice a year and regularly oil it. But I get 2000+ miles a year.
I could do it myself for less but I don't have a space to work and store tools in.
For the punctures, get better tires. My personal recommendation is the Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires. They're made to comply with EU standards required for e-vehicles going up to 50km/h (i.e., ones that require a license and inspections). I had three punctures my first year, second year I switched to these and haven't had a puncture in the two years since.
The chain falling off sounds like bad workmanship. I had a similar issue with my first bike which was a mid-drive. The motor shifted the chain line slightly outwards, and that was enough to cause drops. I got a new front sprocket that cups inwards to correct the chain line and have had no chain drops since then (about two years also). It's surprising to me that an off-the-shelf ebike would have such issues, it suggests shoddy design work and/or insufficient testing.
Loose joints again sounds like a workmanship problem. I'm a software and electronics guy, not a mechanic, but I don't have any such issues on my bike. The first time I mounted the motor I didn't tighten it hard enough and it worked itself loose (still worked, I just noticed that it had a bit of play). Tightened it again and no such issues since.
The left crank coming out is not something I've heard as being common on bikes. It's never happened to me in the 15000km I've put on my ebikes, or the thousands I put on it before installing the motor. Sounds like it just wasn't tightened well enough, which again suggests shoddy workmanship.
All in all, it sounds like you got unlucky and either bought from a disreputable manufacturer, or you got a lemon. Either that or my amateur builds are much better done than the purpose-built ebikes being sold, but I doubt it.
As upofadown mentions, belt drives reduce maintenance even further - I have this setup on a hub geared bike I use for long tours. Before, I'd clean and oil my chain every 3 or 4 days on tour, now I just need to change the oil in the hub yearly. However, you can get a similar effect more cheaply by using a sealed chain cover, as seen on most Dutch bikes (it's no accident that these are the most popular commuter bikes there)
I find cable disk brakes to be another good low-maintenance option (compared to eg canti brakes constantly needing toed in, and changing pads is easy).
You can go tubeless to prevent punctures, but retrofitting that to existing wheels is messy and more work than I've had in a couple of years worth of punctures. For tour/commute I just rely on tyres with kevlar protection (eg Schwalbe Marathon Plus). They cost a little more than standard tyres but you save on tubes in the long run.
All of this increases weight, but not a lot. If you're looking for low maintenance, you're not racing, and you can probably easily lose more weight by riding your bike than you can shed by changing parts.
I ride with just the usual tools - multitool, levers, pump, spare tube - but another option is using a folding bike. I also have a brompton and would often ride that on a city commute with no tools at all; if things go wrong (which they never did) my backup plan was always to fold it up and jump on public transport, fixing it later.
And a crank falling off is _very rare_ on all bikes.
Maybe a project for spring/summer.
The ebikes in that article did seem very expensive, unless dropping $3k-$4k for a bike is acceptable. Do any HNers know of any budget alternatives under $1k?
Batteries have come down in price significantly, just in 2016, I'm sure due to the demand from electric cars. When e-bikes become more popular, and competition increases, the price will come down further. Right now, your best value for an e-bike is a DIY kit.
[0] and norwegian, but not english
For my uses, my non-electric bike plus BART is usually sufficient, so I've been looking around for what would be nice for rain or for trips outside the city. And I've found a bunch of promises and no available products. Most famous may be the Lit Motors C-1, always 5 years away from availability.
My brother just came back from Beijing, and he commented on how they have a lot more transportation options over there.
His complaint with the Trek bike is that it hurt his ass to ride on it compared to the one he preferred. This probably mostly comes down to the saddle, which is something you just change out if you don't like it. It's silly to purchase a whole bike just because you like a particular kind of saddle (though it's a common beginner cyclist mistake).
Also: > BMW (yes that BMW) makes an Ebike ($3,430) featuring Bosch motors with a 400 watt battery
I mean, I realise that many people don't understand the difference between Watts and Watt-Hours, but it again underscores that the writer doesn't really understand the things he's reviewing and comparing, so how can his other information be reliable?
BUT...they're so expensive! A good scooter (eg a Honda Metropolitan) is like $2000. The cheap Chinese scooters I see all around town are probably about half that. I love electric and hate gasoline, but I don't really want to pay twice as much for less utility. I realize a comparable electric motorcycle is like $10k, but ugh.
Of course, if you only use it for trips of ~7 miles it's probably sufficient if much heavier than necessary. These bikes will go further than 7 miles without handling like a ton of bricks.