Ask HN: Leaving a company I recently joined? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Leaving a company I recently joined?

18 pointswhatshouldido28 comments

Less than a year ago, I was hired as a software programmer at a high-tech company which you've heard of. I find the work very interesting, it pays well, and I very much enjoy it.

I've recently been approached by another high-tech company which you've also heard of about the possibility of working there instead. While the talks are at a very early stage, I might find this position more attractive in a number of ways.

I wonder, however, about the questions of ethics and loyalty in leaving so soon a company that has invested in me, not to mention the effects it could have on my friendships with current coworkers, and the future impact on my career.

Your feedback is appreciated.

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In general people other than Jason Calacanis understand and accept that these things happen, and are unlikely to take it personally. However if you have a trend of jumping, some employers won't like it.

But if you're particularly concerned, then I'd suggest telling the new company that while you're tempted by the offer, you feel you have more to accomplish more at your current job before you're ready to leave. Then ask them to check in with you again in several months.

Odds are that they will either sweeten their offer, or else schedule a reminder to contact you again in a few months. Once large companies find a prospect they want, the odds of just forgetting about you are fairly low. Smaller companies are more liable to do that simply because they fill the position they wanted you for, and then they don't have any appropriate openings. But big companies usually have a variety of reasonably openings available at any time. (Unless you are very senior indeed, which I doubt you are.)

Despite what others say, it is perfectly normal and rational to be selfish.

The people telling you not to be selfish do so because when you act selfishly, it goes against their selfish interests.

Discard immediately any shard of confidence you have that your employer might possibly be loyal to its employees. Look out for your self and your family. Basically: think with your heart. It sounds like the decision's been made. And damn the folks who think job hoppers suck. This future employer obviously thinks you're good to go. So will the next, if they approach you or are willing to talk. The whole "job hoppers are worthless" movement is only but a fraction of the potential employers. Those who believe it won't talk to you. There are plenty who think that mentality is rubbish. Do what you feel is right.

Reducing the problem to a vague hypothetical and then weighing the answers of a bunch of anonymous internet people is a bad way of making this type of decision. You actually need to be very specific with company names, stock prices, contract issues, names of actual people you work with, and so forth.

For example leaving Mahalo to go to Yahoo would be a no-brainer, even if you got paid less. Leaving Apple to go to Yahoo would be stupid. Leaving Google for Facebook... tougher call. The details make more of a difference than "+1, Insightful" type posts about loyalty, happiness, and such.

Are you joking ??? For what reason(s) would anyone leave Google to work for Facebook?

For a lot of reasons:

Making a difference. Facebook has about 1000 engineers/product people, Google has about 10000.

Interesting, popular product. Over 400 million people using, it's exciting, once-in-a-lifetime type of product despite the issues revolving around privacy etc.

Money If you have opportunity to get any stock options inside Facebook, you have possibility to get quite amount of money after IPO.

I assume that you have smart coworkers in both places. Google has more middle management and thus company politics, but it's still relatively flat for an organization of its size.

I was in your situation immediately before the recession and chose "honor" over reason. Have regretted it ever since. At the very least, interview with the company that's approached you to see where it goes. No harm in exploring the option to its fullest before you make a decision.

I think you're approaching this the wrong way. Without a contract, the company you work for doesn't care about you the person, only you the worker. You can take what advantages the other company is offering and go to your boss/bosses boss/etc. and go "Listen, I've received X offer, and I'm considering it because of Y, Z, A and B, is there anything you can do to meet these?" If you make it obvious that it's not that you dislike your current job, but that the other one looks nicer, it can play to your advantage for ended up in a better position where you're at, or going to the new place. Just don't tell them the company specifically unless it becomes necessary. And only give details in the parts you care about.

Important note. The order of events that you presented matters a lot. Going to your present employer before accepting communicates the fact that you don't actually want to leave. By contrast if you say you're leaving then they counter-offer, they are doing it out of desperation but with full knowledge that they need to replace you as fast as possible because you are dissatisfied and are therefore likely to leave eventually anyways.

The rule of thumb is to never, ever take a counter-offer. But negotiating for one up front can sometimes work well.

Are you good at programming?

If so, nothing else matters. The industry is not in a position to pick and choose based on how long you keep your jobs. If someone can get a year's worth of good work out of you, then that is a great deal for everyone. Because 99% of the people that interview for programming jobs have absolutely no clue about programming.

Ignore the "job hopping is bad for your career" hype. Those people are not interested in hiring good programmers, they are interested in having "headcount". You don't want a job like that anyway, so there's no loss to you. There are plenty of companies that actually want good programmers, so work for those instead. They won't care how long you were at your last job. (I wouldn't anyway...)

My rule of thumb has been that a single rapid job change doesn't show anything, but you don't want a pattern of rapid job changes on your resume. That is, if your resume is currently something like 3 years at one company, then 9 months at the current place, I wouldn't look askance at that, but I'd be sure I want to stay at the next place for a while before leaving. 3 years, 9 months, 1 year and then looking again does look a little flaky.

I suspect the "job hoppers are flakes" bandwagon includes a lot of people with big stakes in companies that need willing worker bees. If you get a better offer, jump on it. If you keep getting better offers, keep jumping on them.

I especially wouldn't feel guilty if i was headhunted rather than went job searching. Also: what's your skillset for you to be in such high demand? I need to get in on that!

Is less than a year ago same as "recently"? How long did it take you to get up to speed and start being useful? If you've been useful for more than half the time, I wouldn't worry about it simply from this point of view: they put some effort into teaching you and you gave your work back. That's my rule of thumb for feeling bad here... Now you can think about the actual differences between those places instead.

You don't say how much skill and experience you brought to the job. You need to weigh up what you brought to the table and what they gave you.

The other big question to ask, if your current company hit a tough patch (not an unlikely scenario in this climate) how would they treat you? Would you be first or the last to be pink slipped? Are you sure. For example, It's more than likely there are managers and founders who will save their skins before giving a rat's arse about yours.

If you have a much better opportunity, do it - it's not unethical. Your boss may have expected you to stay for many years, but they also know not everyone does. I've done it in the past. My boss was dissapointed, and I felt bad for about 10 minutes. I would have felt bad for years if I'd stayed.

If you're concerned about friendships at work, fair enough. If you stop working daily with people many friendships will become less active. However, you can still stay in touch with people. And in 5 or 10 years, when most people have moved on from both companies, you'll hopefully keep a few friends from both.

As for the impact on your career: don't worry about it. Nothing wrong with changing to a better job. If anything, I'd say it will improve your resume (as in: worked for google then for facebook, awesome.)

The only decision to be made right now is whether to continue talking to them until you get an offer (or until one or both sides decide it isn't a good fit after all). There are no downsides to doing this, so you might as well do it.

Once you have a specific offer, then you have a decision to make.

I think "I" as an individual should always be look out for better profits and opportunities, as the companies them selves do. Main objective of a company is to make $$ and increase profits. Then why should an individual feel guilty if hey have a better opportunity for more money and better opportunity.

Questions on ethics and loyalty should not even arise because companies most often than not make more money per employee than individual salaries. Do they feel guilty?

As for friends you can always keep in touch even after you leave your job.

Finally if this doesn't not convince you, just think of it this way if there were layoffs and your team was under the axe, will your company even give it a second thought about laying you all off?

I don't know the answer to your question, but consider this: if you stay out of loyalty, would you be able to happily continue working knowing that you passed up a potentially better opportunity, or would it affect your morale?

Before making a decision consider the downsides...

What if the new company has problems and they need to lay you off? What if you new boss/team mates are jerks and keep making your life at the new company hell? ... What if you need to leave the new company a month after you join it.

New things are exciting, because they are different. But do remember that they have challenges as well.

While the above will likely not be the case for you, companies might think of you as not being loyal and might not want to invest in you much.

I personally would give my company 18 months at the least, and if I am getting restless I would have a nice long chat with my boss before leaving.

Just keep in mind something that I've observed over time. It's anecdotal and Your Mileage May Vary (disclaimers, etc etc) but I take it as a reasonable parable when phrased as such...

I don't know if the thought/plan/idea has crossed your mind, but be very, very careful about walking in to current company with other companies offer and trying to negotiate to stay. E.G. "They offered me this (be it money, perks, hours, or anything else) and I'd like to stay here but ([list of items from previous list that are most appealing]) is quite tempting. Can you counteroffer?".

It may be different at different companies (I'd hope so) but I've observed friends & coworkers do this and end up in a worse situation staying. They've signaled to people above that they're disloyal/easily distracted/however you want to phrase it and the perception changes. The company in most cases felt they really needed to make an effort to keep the person, but the treatment and trust changed significantly afterwards.

TL;DR - Be careful about negotiating with company #2s offer to stay at current company with perks/salary/etc from company #2. You may find they keep you out of need but keep you at a distance going forward.

As for the meat of the actual question you asked - I would recommend that there's no harm in taking things through to completion with the other company and seeing what they have to offer. Even if you decide ultimately for WHATEVER reason, if you handle it gracefully in most cases you can prop a door open for yourself. Assuming you get a great offer from the new company but decide that you'd like to stay where you are for a few more months , if you handle it professionally (maybe phrased as "finishing a project") there is no reason that "no thank you" has to become "no thank you for now".

Most good companies who value talent and the like will not suddenly burn your resume and curse your name if you turn down an offer in a professional manner. The likelihood is that if they wanted you today there's no reason they wouldn't jump at you in 6 months if your situation changes.

Again, TL;DR - Don't burn bridges on either end if you can help it. Manage the opportunities in a way that whichever direction you go you can leave doors open at both if your situation/opinion changes.

Your coworkers should not and probably will not feel negatively about you looking out for yourself. Speaking from experience from both sides of the aisle. Just how personal relationships work.

The company has invested in you, but you have been investing in the company as well. You won't get the time you spent there back to work on something else.

If you are going to grow or be more challenged more somewhere else, then the future impact will be positive anyway, for you and others. Just be you aren't drinking the new company kool-aid before making a decision.

One short stay shouldn't have any negative impact in future. Most people understand sometimes things don't work out or you get an offer you can't refuse (in a good way). If you had, say, three short stays in a row, future employers might get nervous.

I would go where you think you'll be happiest where 'happiness' is a linear equation comprising money, interesting work, nice colleagues and whatever else matters to you.

A word of caution: make sure nobody at your current company finds out you're talking to the new company until you have an offer on the table.

Good luck.

Think what's better for you career wise... Are you learning a lot in your current job and doing interesting stuff and do you see tangible mid/long term benefits to changing your job.

"I might find this position more attractive in a number of ways" - Talk to your boss about this, tell him why you would like to continue working for him and see if there is something he/she can do.

If it doesn't work, walk out, making sure you honour your notice period and have a face-to-face chat rather than sending an email.

There's nothing wrong with leaving if you feel you'll benefit from doing so, just do the honorable thing not to leave your current employer in the lurch, make sure all your responsibilities are tied up to a standard you would expect and appreciate if you yourself were the employeer.

Hiring employees takes a lot of time and effort, and generally a lot of money. In the future, some prospective employer may see that you've jumped ship and wasted everybody's time in the past. They would probably decline hiring you out of fear of wasting their time.

That's my advice.

Horribly disappointed in you.

What I'm hearing from you is you have a bird in hand and you're saying there also appears to be a bird in a bush over there. You can't have both, but the hypothetical bird in the bush might be better than the one you have. Hmmmmm...

I don't think you've given enough detail here for anybody to tell you with significant confidence you should stay or go, but I don't see a strong case for going based on what I've heard. You started off by saying less than a year ago you started a new job at a name brand high-tech company where the work is very interesting, pays well and you very much enjoy it. ... And yet you're wondering whether you should leave? sound of record needle screeching I feel like something is missing.

Sometimes people really do "job hop" and for the wrong reasons. Be sure you don't do that or you could regret it. Only you know enough details about your situation to determine that.

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