Hacker News Reader

Comment by electic | Hacker News Reader

I did take a close look at the Surface Pro. Sorry, the build quality is nowhere near a MacBook Pro. Secondly, I found the touch screen very gimmicky. I tried using it for a week and found that my hand just hurt lifting it up repeatedly and also hated switching context from the keyboard to the screen. Not to mention, the screen was full of smudge marks after awhile.

To be honest, I really found myself using the keyboard and touchpad the most on the Surface and when you think about it, the MacBook Pro has the best touch pad. I think Apple needs to do some minor things to get the MacBook Pro back on track:

- Fix the battery issue. They really need to fix that from a hardware perspective. Also, the OS needs to be optimized to preserve battery. The burden can't be fully on hardware.

- Put magsafe back or some sort of USB-C magsafe solution.

- Bump the specs. The whole point of the Pro is it is leap years ahead of everyone on processor, HD, and RAM.

- The keyboard is getting better, but I still think it needs more travel time.

- The screen could be further to the edges a bit for a more modern look.

- The ports. Look, I get it, you want to embrace the future but then please include free cables to help in the transition. A power extension cable was not even included in this MacBook pro release, that is just sad.

View on HN

I really like the touchscreen on my Surface Pro and don't find it gimmicky. It's very useful, especially to scroll while reading an article, or to use it in "tablet mode," or just to hit buttons on command prompts. I don't use it for everything, but it is good at making small efficiency improvements in my overall life with my computer. Not accusing you of anything, but I suspect if Apple released a laptop with a touchscreen, people like you would change their tunes on calling it "gimmicky."

You had me at scrolling. Apple is in denial. If nothing else it's the number of times I've witnessed someone try to manipulate the OS on a MacBook only to find themselves dumpfounded, "duh it's not a touchscreen". Well maybe it should be

I really think those people would be better off with an iPad. At least that is the skill level you are describing.

Bit harsh on the downvotes, I agree somewhat. There's a disconnect here, I guess myself and electic are still under the impression "Pro" stands for professional. I would hate to sacrifice even more battery life for a touch screen. Fact is, if you use external monitors, touch screens are never going to work very well.

And seriously, if web browsing is your main use-case, a MBP is overkill.

People who use a touchscreen laptop are used to scrolling with a touchscreen. It has nothing to do with skill level of the user.

Keyboard shortcuts help for scrolling and jumping to the beginning and end of a long page. Use the arrow keys in conjunction with the fn key.

>It's very useful, especially to scroll while reading an article

I don't understand why someone using a laptop would want to scroll by lifting their arm up to the screen, rather than just moving two fingers on the touchpad where their hand is already resting.

When reading more than few lines of text on the screen, my hands do not tend to remain on the keyboard. They instead drift up the sides of the computer, making the screen closer than the touchpad.

Not to mention, having the option to use both certainly doesn't harm anyone.

> They instead drift up the sides of the computer, making the screen closer than the touchpad.

Isn't that uncomfortable?

Apparently not. My father got a HP netbook/tablet and feels super comfortable with it, scrolling and zooming in with gestures on the screen. I never thought it'd be comfortable (for scrolling I'm super used to the mouse wheel, a habit he never caught), but to him it came naturally and he certainly wants it on any other device.

Nope. Well, no more uncomfortable than working on a laptop without an external monitor ever is.

Merely taking my hands off the keyboard is enough for them to move out and away, since I have to "swing" them in to use the keyboard to begin with. This leaves them inches from the screen in the best case, and nowhere near the computer in the worse case.

> They instead drift up the sides of the computer, making the screen closer than the touchpad.

Hmm… if you did that on a new MacBook Pro, wouldn't drifting up the side leave your thumbs somewhere near the Touch Bar? Maybe Apple should add support for scrolling on its edges. Of course, that'd still be a much smaller target than the screen... on the other hand, it would work regardless of window positioning and even with an external monitor.

I'm only speculating, since I don't think I've gotten into that habit myself (not having a touchscreen).

I suspect they might be holding it like a tablet. There are plenty of situations (riding on transit, for example) where the tablet form factor is more appropriate.

I used to have a SP3. When you're just reading something, your hand tends to end up resting along the right side of the computer, and you scroll in the corner of the screen using your thumb. It's more comfortable than scrolling with a trackpad.

I think a lot of this depends on the individual. My natural preference is to use the touch screen. It's not about what's "better" in absolute terms, but what requires the least amount of thought/brain power for the person (my guess is that time is a major factor of the cost calculation - it's quicker to do what is natural). The cost of hand motions isn't significant by comparison.

> rather than just moving two fingers on the touchpad where their hand is already resting.

My hands tend to rest on the mouse or table when reading. It's actually quicker and less conscious to 'flick' the screen when reading than to break focus to find a trackpad and scroll that way.

> I did take a close look at the Surface Pro. Sorry, the build quality is nowhere near a MacBook Pro.

Shrug, not my experience.

> Secondly, I found the touch screen very gimmicky. I tried using it for a week and found that my hand just hurt lifting it up repeatedly and also hated switching context from the keyboard to the screen.

Don't force the touchscreen. Just use it when it makes sense. I've found it's a very natural way to press buttons (because you can just... press the button), particularly when I'm using the keyboard (e.g. filling in a multi-page form, or writing generally) - must nicer than pushing a pointer around to the right place. And it's nice when dragging and dropping, and there are a few games that play nicely that way. And being able to draw/write on it is very nice occasionally. But sure, most of the time I don't use the touchscreen. But even if you ignore the touch aspect, it's a beautiful screen. I've also fallen in love with 3:2 - it seems to strike the right balance between vertical space for development and rectangular enough for watching movies on. At least for me.

> Not to mention, the screen was full of smudge marks after awhile.

That seems like something that shouldn't be happening, assuming your hands were clean? It doesn't happen on mine.

> Don't force the touchscreen. Just use it when it makes sense.

This is like saying "Don't force the new touch bar on macbook pro. Just use it when it makes sense.". A lot of people are pissed about how useless the touch bar is. You can make the same argument about this but the thing is, they could have done better. There's nothing wrong with people criticizing something that's bad. Sure you can just "NOT use it". But these are features designed to be used, and when it doesn't make sense in many cases, it probably means it's badly thought out.

>That seems like something that shouldn't be happening, assuming your hands were clean? It doesn't happen on mine.

Good for you for having the most sanitary hand in the world. For the rest of actual human beings, everyone knows that touching any glass surface leaves smudge, not just computers. I'm fine with logical arguments but please don't deny what everyone knows as fact, because that doesn't fly, and brings credibility of the rest of your arguments down to zero.

The difference being that the touchscreen doesn't take away anything, while the touchbar replaces function keys. You could circumvent this by getting the smaller pro, though.

I own an SP3 and the touchscreen is a blessing. Ironically, even more so because the touchpad on the sp3 is crap, but either way, I seem to know my fingers more than mouse pointers on the screen and prefer to touch the screen as often as possible.

It's not for everyone, but for me, I can dual boot Linux on it, write code, still keep MagSafe charging, have a USB port, AND disconnect the keyboard at the end of the way to watch a movie on a kickstand tablet, AND throw it in my bag and forget it's there, for much less money than a macbook. I love the thing to death.

Also, the screen can be cleaned with a cloth or the bottom of your shirt, like most of us do with our phones. That might be annoying but doesn't sound like a deal breaker.

I find the trackpad to be quite good compared to most other Windows PCs, but it is on the small side. I haven't tried the SP4 keyboard yet where it is slightly larger.

The touch capability is interesting in that I've found that I've begun using it along with the pen more and more over time. The pen has really grown on me as I've discovered more ways to put it to use. For the first year that I owned my SP3 I rarely used the pen, but now I use it almost every day. Being able to switch from full on tablet and pen back to keyboard and mouse mode is pretty killer and I plan to continue using this form factor for the foreseeable future.

> The difference being that the touchscreen doesn't take away anything,

it takes away "thinness". I wanted a thinner screen and when the computer MUST have a touchscreen, then I lose the thinnness.

> This is like saying "Don't force the new touch bar on macbook pro. Just use it when it makes sense.". A lot of people are pissed about how useless the touch bar is. You can make the same argument about this but the thing is, they could have done better. There's nothing wrong with people criticizing something that's bad.

I think people are more annoyed about losing the physical function keys. Honestly the touchscreen is niche functionality unless you're an artist or something, and if it were a choice between a brighter/sharper/clearer non-touch screen and a touchscreen I would absolutely go for the former. But like I said, the surface book screen is really good even if you ignore the touch aspect - at which point the touch really does just become an enhancement, and the little enhancements add up.

> For the rest of actual human beings, everyone knows that touching any glass surface leaves smudge, not just computers.

Indeed, which is why I was very surprised when it didn't happen (it did on previous laptops I've used). But it doesn't seem to. I figured the anti-grease coatings or whatever they use must've got a lot better. (Modern phones are the same - whatever it is that makes the screens smudge they seem to have found some way to deal with it. So it's not like this is magical technology).

Regarding the touchscreen, I have a Thinkpad with a touchscreen. If you ask me how I used a touchscreen six months ago I'd say probably never. It wasn't until I got a loaner that didn't have a touchscreen that I realized how much I used it. I was constantly trying to use the touchscreen when I was doing things like scroll the webpage when I was immersively reading. I actually didn't realize I was using it until I no longer had it.

The Surface's touch screen is not meant for full-time use. It's a hybrid device. If you need a pure tablet, get a pure tablet. I really like my ThinkPad Yoga's hybrid featureset.

I hate to say it, but this post definitely has the ring of fanboyism.

The build quality of the Surface is "nowhere near a MacBook Pro" ... without specifying anything that's actually worse.

The point of the MBP is "always to be leap years ahead" on specs, but in reality, they never really are; they're usually comparable to other high-end laptops, although they are normally the priciest by about $1k and among the least repairable/extensible.

Speaking of gimmicks, you've apparently seriously suggested that Apple just need to make even thinner edges.

Maybe I'm just a tasteless philistine like all the other non-Mac users, but personally I think you may've had a bit too much kool-aid.

I used a 2007 MBP as my main computer for a while (and it was my only laptop for years), and I've also used a work-issued 2013 MBP for extended periods of time. There are certainly nice things about Macs (I ended up loving the Retina display much more than I expected to), but they're not the end-all be-all.

While I agree with you on a few points, I think it gets drowned out by the ring of anti-fanboyism too.

The build quality on MacBooks is well-known in the industry and, if you go to a Microsoft Store (or own one), it's readily visible that the build quality isn't on par. Don't get me wrong, it's really good, but it's not MacBook good. This isn't the greatest example because I don't own one, but look at this shot (https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-QM003_MSFTst_P...) and compare even the fit and finish of the cutouts.

As for the specs, I don't know where you got that the point of the MBP is to be leap years ahead on specs and I'm pretty sure this is a straw man that you set up just to argue against it. Apple has never been about pushing specs but only the overall experience of using their machines. In fact, in a lot of benchmarks, Apple devices outperform similarly (or even better) spec'd PCs simply because of Apple's ecosystem advantage.

You're right that they're not the end-all be-all, but you should probably make sure you're being objective yourself before suggesting that someone else has had too much kool-aid.

>As for the specs, I don't know where you got that the point of the MBP is to be leap years ahead on specs and I'm pretty sure this is a straw man that you set up just to argue against it.

The post I replied to says:

"- Bump the specs. The whole point of the Pro is it is leap years ahead of everyone on processor, HD, and RAM."

Apologies. Just carry that over to their post then. That has never been the point of the Pro.

Not to suggest you're wrong, but the picture you linked is one of Surface Studio. (There are other things wrong with that machine that I won't get into.)

Do you have any evidence regarding the fit and finish of the Surface Pro (which was what the original question was about) wrt Macbook Pros?

Again, not saying you're wrong, just the picture you linked doesn't say that.

Edit: changed Surface Book to Surface Pro

Ugh. I am totally off my game today. Here's the ports on the Surface Pro (https://cdn2.macworld.co.uk/cmsdata/reviews/3648915/new_macb...)

It may not even be a fair comparison since the Surface has to accommodate the screen going in either direction and the design plays a big part in the visual appeal for the Macbooks, but it just doesn't look as polished to me. Again, I think the only way to really see and feel the difference is to go to a Microsoft Store and check it out for yourself. If you're lucky enough to have an Apple Store and a Microsoft Store near each other, it'll be even more obvious, in my opinion.

Thank you for the updated picture. That is now the Surface Book (not the Surface Pro). Maybe third time's the charm? :)

I happen to live in the Bay Area, and there's a mall here where there are an Apple Store and a MS store literally opposite each other. I've fondled both laptops (MBP, Surface Book -- never was a big fan of the Surface Pro) and my impressions about the hardware were as follows:

1) The new MBP is really just that, the new MBP. The touch strip novelty factor wore off for me very quickly. The build quality is nice (to be expected of MBPs, surely) although I did feel like sometimes the screen didn't want to close all the way in. I think the fact that it only has USB-C ports is going to bug me, a lot.

2) I didn't really know what to expect for the Surface Book. I was pleasantly surprised by the hinge -- it's very solid. Weight distribution is a concern; the laptop is definitely top heavy due to its motherboard placement behind the screen. The screen latch is cool but I have concerns about longevity, although it felt /really/ solid. I tried to separate the screen without unlatching it and there was no give.

To my untrained eyes, I'd say the new MBP and the Surface Book are about on par, build quality wise. Admittedly I didn't take a good look at the port cutouts on the Surface Book to see if they line up.

WRT Surface Pro, I just don't feel like I'm the target audience. I type very quickly and very loudly, and I would probably break the type cover in short order. The touch pad is too small for me. For these reasons I never gave it a fair shake, so I don't have much to say about its build quality.

I agree, but on the other hand, I'm yet to find something that requires the use of the touchscreen. So I don't use it. Unless I'm carrying it around like a tablet, in which case it's a great feature to have.

Yeah but you paid the money, reliability, and weight penalties for a touchscreen for no reason.

Not no reason - as I said, the tablet mode is useful. Just not in the scenario when you're normally be using a keyboard and trackpad.

I bought the Dell XPS 13 with the hidpi display. I didn't buy it for the touchscreen and I couldn't buy it without if I wanted the resolution.

I'd have happily paid less for the same resolution but longer battery life (low power for driving the touch sensor and more for driving the display to a greater brightness to support the same display brightness).

I figure I should have put up with a lower resolution display tbh, which is sad.

Personally, I find FHD on a 13-inch screen perfectly fine. One might be able to distinguish between FHD and QHD on the screen, but definitely not at a regular viewing distance. This way, I don't have to deal with any of the issues that HiDPI typically brings as well.

What I really wanted was a non-touch FHD Developer Edition with Rose Gold, but c'est la vie. It's been one of my favorite laptops.

Yeah, like I said, I should have just stuck with the FHD display :( Tradeoffs...

The touch screen on the Surface has one killer application: scrolling while reading. It's very natural to scroll content with a thumb on the edge of the screen.

Yes, but you have to lift your arm up. It is far far faster to scroll through a web page with the touchpad.

Lift your arm up? I can rest my arm on the desk and have my thumb in the lower right corner of the screen. It's actually much nicer than having my hand in front of me slightly raised to have two fingers to scroll with. Try it now.

Yes, but then you just have one hand on the keyboard. So now to type, you have to bring your right hand down, and resume typing. The distance there is greater vs. using the touchpad. I just have to flick my wrist and boom, I am on the touch pad scrolling. On Surface, assuming I hate the touchpad and want to use the screen, I have to take my hand off the keyboard, put it on the screen and start scrolling.

If having your hands on the keyboard is so important, on a Surface you can just scroll with the arrow keys, the way Flying Spaghetti Monster intended.

Why do you assume that you have to use the screen or the touchpad exclusively? Surely if you're going to be fliting back and froth between keyboard and scrolling you'll use the touchpad but if you're reading a longer form article you rest your hand on the desk with your thumb on the screen and scroll comfortably. Both can work.

Screen scrolling is for those cases where you do not need to type. Which is actually a lot of online content consumption these days.

If you never do prolonged reading on your devices, then yes, it's not a scenario for you specifically. But many people find it quite useful.

Not if you're using it in tablet mode.

You're starting to sound like one of those funny infomercials where everything is black and white and the actor fumbles with some overtly awkward action, that is otherwise mundane... Holding their outstretched arm up over their head with their other arm, a grimace of strain on their face, trying to scroll with their pinky finger. All the while the voice-over is asking why you'd subject yourself to this.

It's a, very natural, quarter inch movement of your thumb while your arm rests comfortably on the table. Not unlike having your hand on your coffee mug.

I think the point, though, is that your hand wouldn't naturally rest on the table near the screen like that. The main reason you're comfortable doing that is because you know you can scroll with your hand in that position. The natural resting position would be to relax your hands off the keyboard after typing and that puts it squarely in the area of the (comically) huge trackpad.

Bingo. Your hand is already there, no need to leave the workspace. There is no need to move up they keyboard and to the right and then up the screen to scroll.

The hundreds of millions of people that have used a mouse can attest to how 'natural' it is.

Except that the mouse is an example of being completely unnatural... The whole point of the positioning on the trackpad is that it's right there when you relax your hands from the keyboard. Otherwise, you'd see computers with trackpads above the keyboard. The positioning of a mouse may be a reflex from usage, but it's the exact opposite of natural.

I wish the trackpad was above the keyboard. I am constantly accidentally switching focus or selecting things while I am typing.

Enjoy your rheumatory problems in the future

I'm reading this right now (well, thirty seconds ago, before I started typing) on a touch-screen Chromebook. My right hand was resting on the table in a vertical orientation with the edge of my hand on the table, my finger loosely resting on the back of the screen, and my thumb on the touchscreen scrolling up and down. Very smooth, very natural.

Conversely, scrolling up and down this text box using the trackpad is tiny, cramped, constrained motions of my finger on the touchpad.

> It is far far faster to scroll through a web page with the touchpad.

This is true if you are the only one using it. If people are standing around you or over your shoulder, and you are all interacting with the screen - then a touchable screen is more quickly usable than shuffling who-has-the-keyboard-mouse. Not saying you are wrong, but there are scenarios where a touch screen is the "best" of the available IO options.

So now I have to let other people touch my screen? Best argument against a touchscreen ever :-).

Seriously though, I'd probably prefer a touchscreen and normal keyboard to the touch bar -- at least I'm already looking at the screen.

This sounds like everyone here is about to get into an argument over hand position. I feel like the hand being positioned hear the bottom of the computer is the result of you knowing that you can scroll with your thumb like that. Wouldn't your natural position after using the keyboard be to just relax your hands which would put it right near the trackpad? It seems like moving your hands out to the side of the computer/table/desk is a self-fulfilling improvement as you most likely wouldn't put your hands there if there wasn't a touchscreen. There would be no benefit or convenience to it otherwise. On top of that, you'll most likely still have one hand resting near the keyboard for typing which further worsens the inconvenience.

This is in tablet "mode" right? Otherwise it would be easier to use a two-finger scroll on the touchpad (for me anyway).

I couldn't agree more. The Surface Pro and Surface Book are in a completely different (lower) category of build quality compared to the new MBP. Also, the touchpads on the Surface products are nowhere near as good as I was led to expect from online comments. The Surface touchpads are passable at best by late 2016 standards and, again, are in a different category than the new MBP trackpads.

I have a retina Macbook Pro (15") that I absolutely love, but I have to say the touchpad on the new MacBook Pros just doesn't feel right to me. I've played with them in the store, and maybe I could get used to it, but its mostly the size. It just seems overly large and my palms end up on it. Although to be honest I use my MacBook with a couple of dell p2715q's hooked to it, and I use a magic trackpad and keyboard separately now.

I'll admit the touchpad on the new 15" seemed comically large at first. I actually laughed a bit when I first saw it.

Now I'm used to it though and really appreciate the extra size. Granted, I use BetterTouchTool a lot with lots of custom gestures.

> Fix the battery issue.

I don't think there is any hardware/software issues for the poor battery performance in latest MacBook Pro. The TouchBar uses AppleWatch CPU under the hood, and anything with a screen will suck up battery rather badly. They might be able to squeeze some more juice by software update. Its likely noticeable improvement will come with the refresh next year. The one thing Apple needs to do is the price. Many are pissed that they pay so much premium but get worst battery performance than last year model.

The parent article has the first good explanation I've seen for the battery issues in the new MacBook Pro. Apparently they wanted to use a fancy non-square battery but it failed some tests so they reverted to a much smaller square battery at the last minute, thus the significant drop in capacity.

> Fix the battery issue. They really need to fix that from a hardware perspective. Also, the OS needs to be optimized to preserve battery. The burden can't be fully on hardware.

They actually have been doing this for the past few years—for instance, when you ask the OS for a timer, the timer you get will be ±10% of what you requested so that a bunch of timers can go off all at once. This way the CPU can sleep, wake up, take care of all of them, and then go back to sleep. (You can say 'no really it needs to be exactly this time', but most of the time you don't need that). Other things as well, but that's the one that's stuck in my brain.

They only have been doing that for the past few years? Android did that in 2009

Oddly I found the kickstand on the Surface Pro irritating to work with because the device becomes impossible to use on your lap, as you need to put the Surface quite far up your leg, and then the kickstand is further along than the length of your leg (hanging over your knees). So it becomes impractical to use.

The OS has done quite well to optimise battery I thought - App Nap has been great. If I reboot my MBP into Windows (so same hardware, different OS), I get worse battery life.

Agree with the ports - the Surface Pro I use at work has 1 USB port so plug in a wired mouse and you can't plug in your USB key. Despite the love of wifi, ports are a great way to keep your device useful.

I agree the kickstand is horrible. I bought an aftermarket case (manvex) which makes it much easier to use on non-flat surfaces. I think there's other brands with similar things.

I have this problem too. They could've mostly solved it by just making the keyboard work wirelessly while detached. (Surface with kickstand on the coffee table, keyboard in my lap.)

> The screen could be further to the edges a bit for a more modern look.

I have the new MBP 13" (love it), but the one thing that annoys me slightly is the smudges on the edge of the screen from opening it, or adjusting the screen angle.

It's impossible not to get marks on the screen. As it is, they're in the thin bezel area and not on the actual screen. I'm not sure I'd want the screen to go all the way to the edge...

>The keyboard is getting better, but I still think it needs more travel time.

I wish Apple would use the same keys that they use on the new Magic Keyboard. Definitely less travel than outgoing MacBook Pros but still clicky and usable.

> Not to mention, the screen was full of smudge marks after awhile.

This! I can't even get to the other complaints myself because this one triggers my OCD almost immediately into the experience.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com