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I recently attended a talk by Dr. Rhonda Patrick on the biohacker summit in Finland. It was extremely interesting.

Another finding that I remember about physical activity being accounted for is the fact that sauna itself contributes to heart fitness, since cardiac activity is increased during sauna. So effectively reducing prevalence of heart problems in people with no pre conditions.

I live in Finland, and I also need to point out that sauna is almost an holistic thing, contributing greatly both to you mental and physical well being.

She's got a great youtube channel by the way. One of my favorite.

https://www.youtube.com/user/FoundMyFitness/

Here is a video of the talk she presented at that conference... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if-J8w2ay94

Re: longevity - one of my sauna friends has just stopped going regularly this year. He is 101 years old. Just one data point of course.

Do you know if they tried to control for other "healthiness" variables? Someone that goes to the sauna 4-7 times a week might be a person that pays much more attention to their health. I know physical activity was adjusted for but how about lots of other factors like diet and supplements or even just being a person that listens to their body more? I'd need to see data like that before I would even consider causation for this sauna reduction in dementia effect.

Someone who goes to the sauna 4-7 times a week in Finland is just Finnish. It's what they do.

Well, that much is rare (I'm finnish). I think most people go once or a few times per week.

(snip)

Do people socialise whilst being in a sauna, or do they rather meditate? Does it differ per person or region? If meditate, has there been cross reference between people who meditate instead of sauna?

Socialising and meditation differs per person, not really by region in Finland.

Mostly the sauna is a family thing (yes, the whole kernel family of parents and small children may go together to their own sauna, everyone's naked, until the children are close to puberty and men and women of family go separately; public saunas such as those in swimming halls or the traditional public washing facilities are strictly gender-segregated.)

Sauna is perhaps a bit more of a social happening than meditation, although there are some clear aspects of meditation as well. As of old, sauna is a "holy" place; you're not supposed to yell, as the house-elves would not like it. In traditional farms, sauna was were babies were born, and where the dead were washed, so it's a bit of a place of reverence. And it used to be the cleanest and often warmest part of the household.

Then again all of my friends go to Sauna together, men and women, naked. There are some famous public saunas where you can do this, especially the now famous Sompasauna in Helsinki.

Source: I used to live in Finland.

Yes, it happens, though it's definitely not the norm.

Most often this occurs with young university students.

Don't forget the hippies... :)

It used to be, and

In Netherland all saunas tend to have men and women together, with rare exceptions. But saunas are much less common and less part of normal every day life than in Finland.

Mixed-gender saunas are pretty common if not the norm in Germany. At least all saunas I've been to were mixed-gender. Often they'll have one dedicated women-only day per week.

Another difficulty with this question (socialize or meditate?) is caused by the Finnish approach to socializing. Is sitting silently together meditating or socializing? Since Finns can only communicate by text message, this is a valid question.

Ok, ok, just kidding -- Finns can talk plenty! But seriously, in Finnish culture sitting silently together is a legitimate form of socializing, unlike some other cultures. Conversation need not be constant.

An interesting documentary to watch is Miesten Vuoro (released as Steam of Life in English, but literally translating to 'men's turn'). It explores sauna culture on one level, men's emotional lives on another level.

And as ptaipale says below, "In sauna one should be like one is in church" -- my terrible translation of a phrase about a certain traditional attitude toward sauna behavior.

> in Finnish culture sitting silently together is a legitimate form of socializing, unlike some other cultures. Conversation need not be constant.

Are you joking or is this real, like 4 people might meet up and it wouldn't be uncommon to sit there not speaking?

I'd characterize it as "very long pauses between replies that are less awkward than one would expect".

Well, you'd probably talk a bit initially and if you actually had something to say, but the American expectation that there has to be a constant stream of smalltalk (or inane blather, from a Finnish POV) is notably missing.

There's a classic joke about this:

One day two friends, Jukka and Pekka, meet after a long time apart and they go to a sauna in the woods. They drink vodka in silence for a couple of hours. Then Jukka asks: “So Pekka, how have you been doing?” Pekka says nothing, and they continue drinking for another couple of hours. Eventually Jukka asks: “How's the family?”. At that point, Pekka stands up and shouts: “Did we come here to talk, or did we come here to drink?”

(courtesy http://telefinn.blogspot.com.au/2011/09/finnish-jokes-about-...)

> the American expectation that there has to be a constant stream of smalltalk (or inane blather, from a Finnish POV) is notably missing.

After returning from an international travel experience, coming back to the States this was very noticeable culture difference.

I experienced the opposite. When I was young I, European, went to the States and I was being asked 'how are you' in a grocery store. So I ended up answering this question quite seriously until my American friend bumped me to explain we should move on. Obviously, there's only one correct answer to that question: 'good, how are you?'

I consider it an extremely rude gesture, and not at all courtesy. If you're asking someone how they are, you should do that genuinely, or not at all. While I fully understand how it is being courteous there are different ways to be courteous which don't include asking questions you don't really want answers to. IOW, I find it very fake.

Although I do experience it more here as well, thinking back I remember it occurring at work and in family. I tend to avoid using it.

Think of it as an opening. If there is really something you could relevantly discuss with that person, you have the opening, but normally it simply means the person is indicating some regard. To turn it around, it would be "extremely rude" of you to take everyone's time in going into details if there were no real reason to do so.

Yep, I eventually figured out its an opening, and I did learn to not answer the question. Nonetheless it is still rather odd to me given all the chit-chat Americans tend to have. It just seems inefficient to me, and it has too much potential for awkwardness. Hence I still remain of the opinion "if you don't want to hear an honest answer to a question; don't ask that question." akin to "doctor, it hurts when I do that; then don't do that."

I sortof feel the same on 'have a good one' except here this does not hurt anyone, and it does not cause misconception. It is merely ending on a positive note. With that being said, a better way of introducing is "hello, pleased to meet you" since it shows dignity, or just "hello, good morning" which is more neutral. All of these are kind and small gestures but not overly or in the sense of inviting too much chit-chat, or invitations to doors which ought to remain closed.

Anyway, no matter how much I dislike it, it won't change. At the same time I don't have to put myself on that level.

I thought the common stereotype was that Finns only chat with each other in the sauna.

In the one I use here in MA (we call it a steam room- is it the same?) people are talking in what I think is Russian. I meditate. I also wear shorts, but many are naked.

Edit: It Looks like a sauna is dry heat, a steam room is obviously moist heat. The sauna is typically kept hotter- 160-200 deg F, while the steam room is usually 110-115 deg F.

Finnish sauna is not dry, the idea is to generate the steam (called löyly in Finnish) after you go in by throwing water on the hot rocks.

Best saunas are quite moist and not too hot, but the amount of moisture in air is controlled by the bathers. Sometimes this ends up in a competition (who can stand the wettest steam) but that's actually slightly bad manners.

For perfect results, I add a little beer to the water I throw on rocks (this is a matter of taste, some say that's not proper; in any case, things like menthol or eucalyptus don't really belong in Finnish sauna steam).

As to the positive health impacts, I'm completely agnostic. Or perhaps I think that it's more that healthy people can go often to sauna, not that going often would make you healthier.

Relative to "steam rooms" like Turkish bath a Finnish sauna is rather dry (relative humidity under 50%). Keeping the humidity in check is how the 80-100 °C temperature can be bearable in the first place.

Yes. Finnish spas and some swimming halls have a "steam sauna" which is lower temperature and very steamy, more like the Turkish bath, but still with wooden multi-level benches.

Any sauna is still very dry compared to a real steam bath. You would be boiled alive if a steam bath operated at sauna temperatures.

In Dutch saunas (many of which have a sauna room called "Finnish sauna", which tend to be the hottest and driest of all), löyly is not standard, but only done in one sauna room at specific times, and controlled by the sauna personnel. (Dutch saunas tend to be commercially exploited complexes with multiple types of sauna, a steam room, masseurs, etc.) The sudden increase in moisture does help make you sweat more, and a lot of people appreciate that (but not everybody). And it's definitely often with eucalyptus or other fancy oils.

in the Russian sauna (banya) even if you arrive to banya alone it's common to pair up with another person so that they can strike each other with banny venik--tree branches tied together in a bundle, white birch is probably the most common in Belarus. Particularly if you know well the other person (and know this is their preference) the striking can be quite vigorous. I suppose i would consider this both a form of socializing and meditation.

does anyone know if there is a temperature threshold for inclusion in the study? Saunas in the United States (only been in a few, like at the 24-hour fitness club) are, to me, tepid--feels like i'm in a sauna in which someone put out the fire several hours ago.

Russian saunas are are much, much hotter and i rarely see foreigners in them which suggests they are too hot for their tastes (though probably not for Turks or Finns). Saunas in villages or small cities in Russia and Belarus, which tend to adhere more to traditional recipes, are so hot (a little above 90 C, i've always been told is what they aim for) i can't tolerate them for more than a few minutes (and even the locals usually wear felt beanies while in there).

> This effect was shown mediated by heat shock proteins (hsps), which are very robustly increased in humans during sauna use.

Are they specifically heat related or any temperature stress might do?

I've been using cold water exclusively year round for last few years with occasional show/ice baths in winter time. I'm wondering if I'm missing something by avoiding warm water/saunas.

Heat shock proteins are really a response to abnormal protein folding (generally speaking) and are found upregulated in a number of stress response scenarios; including cold, heat, and oxidative stress

Sounds like desert dwellers should live longer?

Re oxidative stress, can you give practical examples of how this is achieved for a person, what physical action creates it? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxidative_stress suggests it's associated with lots of great harms - brain diseases, heart disease, etc.. How does that pair with longevity in practice?

>How does that pair with longevity in practice?

It doesn't. It pairs with shock proteins.

FYI, I got a "Page not found" error when clicking on your link.

There's byte sporge at the end, here's the link:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25705824

And yet it's still just a correlation (not causation the way the media and HN title it: we can do better).

edit: and your link is broken

>In flies and worms heat stress (exposing them to a 30 min. heat chamber just one time) has been shown to boost lifespan by up to 15%.

Does that mean one can have the similar effects by sitting close to a heat source for half an hour some, without the full cost (or exact technique) of being into a sauna?

Sitting next to the stove won't get the air round you to 70-80C, nor will you have the periodic steam that you get by pouring water onto the kiuas (sauna stove).

Working URL: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=25705824 Maybe NIH isn't honoring its previous, non-https links anymore for ideological reasons?

She also produced a video talking specifically to that study as well, which can be found here... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWKBsh7YTXQ

So does that mean it's likely just the heat and steam room/sunbathing and stuff will likely trigger the same mechanisms?