Improving Supercharger Availability | Hacker News Reader

Improving Supercharger Availability

tesla.com

85 pointsprostoalex77 comments

This reminds me of the early history of street parking meters: They were introduced not as a source of revenue, but rather because retail store owners complained that their customers had nowhere to park. In one famous instance, one side of a street was metered and the other not, and the merchants on "free parking" side of the street immediately started lobbying to have meters installed on their side too, since their potential customers were parking where space was available... and not crossing the street.

People tend to think of metered street parking as being a matter of raising revenue, but in terms of the revenue raised per square foot it's one of the least profitable uses of real estate around; but even a nominal price works wonders to encourage drivers to plan on vacating their parking spot promptly once they're finished at the local stores.

It would be great if street parking everywhere were priced to pay for the land it used. Free (or very cheap) street parking (and also large parking space requirements for businesses) has to be one of the worst imaginable land uses: creates traffic, makes road design less friendly to pedestrians/cyclists/buses, undercuts paid parking structures, wastes incredible amounts of space.

It’s really nice that the commercial street near me in SF has started allowing businesses to replace parking spaces with public parklets. Much better use of space.

I hadn't heard that before. How interesting! Do you have a source or a book that talks about this history more?

The High Cost of Free Parking by Donald Shoup

I agree and I noticed how really "Helpful" it is in my city. There are two parts of the city: One with metered parking (maximum stay is 2 hours) and the other with free parking.

It's impossible to find empty space on the free zone. It seems that people park there and only get off by the end of day. On the other hand, I always find a parking spot on the metered zone. It seems that being non-free and a time limit makes it impossible for full day parking. So only people in need of a short trip (30-90min) will park.

One very very interesting bit of trivia. I never thought to investigate those things.

I take it you don't have any $5/hour parking meters where you live.

And what do you think market rent is for the commercial property across the sidewalk from the $5/hr parking spot?

If you don't want to pay $40 to park for 8 hours, park somewhere else. The whole point is to prevent people from parking there for that long.

The point of my comment was to reply to this part of the parent comment: "but in terms of the revenue raised per square foot it's one of the least profitable uses of real estate around". At $60/day earned by the city for a 172 sq ft parking space, that translates to about $10.50 per sq ft per month, rivaling most office buildings.

Not at all. The parking spot may earn $10.50 per square foot per month, but the office tower earns $10 or more per square foot per floor per month.

Elon just tweeted:"We are going to modify this so that people only pay a fee if most bays are occupied. If the site is basically deserted, no problem to park."

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/810135528783937537

If the Supercharger stations are on private property, it seems like Tesla could legally activate self-driving "Summon" functionality to move fully-charged Teslas to nearby parking spaces. The only real challenge would be safely unplugging the cable without damage to the car, which is relatively trivial compared to the self-driving technology they've already built.

Tesla has a video of an automated "snake" cable on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMM0lRfX6YI

And here's the Marvin Gaye version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiY5XNNzFQ8

And the infamous "don't drop anything when you're near it" comment by Elon (https://youtu.be/gV6hP9wpMW8?t=1m25s)

That's not over-engineered at all.

That thing has always seemed so needlessly overcomplex to me. Not that I work at Tesla, I'm sure there are reasons for it. But do they extend beyond "because it looks cool"?

Surely a robotic arm with 3 joints would suffice?

Ultimately the 'charging station' is going to become a socket on the wall that is a beefier version of what you might plug a kettle into. Some people with posh garages might have these fancy snake things but everyone else will be getting some charging lead and plugging it in.

I can imagine it becoming a viable business to dig up a whole street and to install sockets for every space on both sides of the road, for electricity to be sold and parking charged for. We have seen this with the roads being dug up for fibre broadband.

What I don't ever imagine is the street outside my house ever having snake style robot arms every few yards, sockets I could imagine and I could imagine some gold rush where the streets get dug up to cash in on some electric car boom, even before electric cars are ubiquitous. With cable we had the streets dug up for relatively few takers, but in time, with broadband, everyone became dependent on that service.

you have to consider self-driving cars. the car might go somewhere without a human to plug it in. that's where the snake may come into play.

That's a good mechanical design. Flexible robots like that are cable-driven from the base. All the expensive parts are in the base, where they can be protected. The motors and gear trains don't have to be lightweight. This reduces cost and improves ruggedness.

The arm just has cable guides and the wiring for the plug. There's probably a $10 cell phone camera and a light source near the end, for zeroing in on the power socket. That eliminates the need for high precision positioning. There are no exposed joints, so the whole thing can be encased in a flexible covering for weather protection. If you put springs in the cables, the tentacle will deflect if bumped without damage.

Flexible robots like that have been used industrially, but the low precision and problems with cable wear have been a problem. For the power plug application, neither is a problem - final positioning is camera controlled, and the mechanism operates maybe once an hour in busy locations.

Tesla should have deployed this by now. Something about that thing seems to upset people, though.

Robotic gas station pumps have been built using more common robot technologies.[1][2] They're big, complicated, expensive, and commercial flops.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YV79YcSvYQ [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qALPymP1f6Y

Not that difficult, the plug in the car could have an ejection mechanism(just pushing slowly the cable, nothing fancy) and then you move the car away to a parking slot with autosummon. The cable just needs to be installed from a taller post that avoids it being dragged by the floor when released. If done like this doesn't need really high tech on top of summon.

It's funny that the problem of a self driving car that can move itself out of the way into a free parking spot is solved but we are worried that unplugging a power cord thing might be too hard...

It looks like Tesla decided to take action on this issue because of a Tweet to Elon. Pretty cool.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/807787096727425024

Owners have been complaining about it for a long time, especially at certain superchargers. Tesla is well aware (from their stats) where this problem exists.

What I found really cool was the week it apparently took them to implement the change after he tweeted about it. Maybe they were already working on it, or maybe they're just that fast and agile. Either way like you said, pretty cool.

That's exactly what you're supposed to think. You've been PR'd.

They probably had this ready for a while and responded to a tweet when ready to deploy. I'm sure they get tweets like that one every day.

The gas station analogy is contrived: a comparable car can be filled with half a tank of liquid fuel in two or three minutes, while the Tesla website quotes the supercharger charging it to half charge in 20 minutes.

It's certainly a lot more reasonable to leave the car unattended for 20 minutes while going about one's business, especially as supercharger stations in urban and suburban areas tend to be near malls and retail districts. Nor is it much fun running back to your car within five minutes, but it's clear that this initiative is trying to encourage a behavior that's more considerate towards others waiting to charge.

It also illustrates a different trend: that Teslas, more so than any previous car, blur the line between outright ownership and a automobiles-(and associated infrastructure)-as-a-Service -- (edit: even if they don't intend to make a profit off this change).

>Teslas, more so than any previous car, blur the line between outright ownership and a automobiles-(and associated infrastructure)-as-a-Service

Not that i think you're wrong, but i'm not sure how you draw that conclusion from this announcement. "you can't park your car forever at our charging stations" hardy implies you don't really own the car.

The supercharger station is operated by Tesla. Unlike at a fuel pump, you don't need to authenticate or submit payment; you can just plug it in, and the car knows who you are. If you overstay after your car is full, your car will inform HQ, and they will bill you to your name.

You still own the car, of course. It's just a fascinating convergence of perma-OnStar, of over-the-air firmware and software updates, and it's quite different from the days when your relationship with the automaker effectively (or could have) ended when you drove off the dealer's lot.

I don't see why this relates to ownership. Tesla owners own their cars outright. Tesla owners up until now have free access to the Supercharger network for long-distance travel. "Paying" at a Supercharger is very convenient. How does that affect car ownership?

The formal legal status of ownership is not the same thing as the affordances usually provided by it, and the latter is what people generally mean when they talk about ownership.

If you left your car parked at a gas station pump you'd probably be towed. I don't see how this changes anything.

To be fair, there's another way to spin that.

The car doesn't know who you are. Tesla knows who you are, because you purchased their car. It probably has a unique identifier. UID is transferred to HQ, query run, information gathered. So not so much the car as just Tesla.

Besides, it's possible for a certain kind of user that would never take advantage of a supercharger, instead stopping for electricity wherever they go about their day.

This is total speculation though, I have not driven a Tesla, never mind having purchased one.

> Nor is it much fun running back to your car within five minutes

Considering (a) the charging status can be monitored through the app, (b) there's a push notification for "almost done", (c) there's the final push notification of "charging completed" when the 5-minute grace period kicks in, it's hardly a surprise out of the blue.

That kills the concept that people will eat meals while charging. What will restaurant operators who were going to allow Tesla to install charging points, such as this chain[1], do about this?

[1] http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/30/12076172/tesla-supercharge...

You'll have to move your car mid-meal or pay a small fee. Not quite the commercial it once was but not a dealbreaker for me either.

Restaurants could perhaps strike deals with Tesla to allow customers waived fees up to an hour or two?

It's like going to the toilet mid-meal.

I wouldn't quite call 24$ per hour a "small fee" for parking. If you're in a restaurant for two hours after you've charged that's nearly fifty bucks just for parking.

If you plan to have 2-hour meals, you do not need to charge at a supercharger. Thats what destination chargers are for. They are cheap enough, that every parking lot can be equipped where there is demand.

Then think of it as a fee for charging.

Considering Tesla is optimizing for customer experience, such deal is unlikely to placate a carowner who now needs to wait for an extra hour or two for for a spare spot.

If the restaurant is optimizing for such customer, they can always install their very own high-speed wall charger http://shop.teslamotors.com/products/wall-connector-with-8-5...

Some hotels, restaurants and wineries have done this, and they show up as "destination chargers" on Tesla maps.

Personally it's a non-issue for me.

Maybe for those who it is an issue for, Tesla can one day do an OTA which sends the car into an automated parking pattern.

>>When charge finish, automatically circle parking lot until parking spot found.

This is about time spent after having finished charging. As you are well aware, the charge current on Lithium batteries has to drop off a cliff as they near completion, so a full charge on a Tesla supercharger is still 1h+

(Which is why most on a trip never charge fully)

Well if the restaurant is proving the space for super chargers then two ideas, one is they decide if there is a fee or they have designated valet service for their customers

In the long run, the cars will move themselves, so that would work anyway.

Not to mention the valet service currently available at overly-popular superchargers.

For all who think it is inconvenient to move their cars after the charging has finished, think about how inconvenient it must be to stand with an empty battery in line at a supercharger, because people are parking but not charging there.

Well also... When nearly every Tesla will have auto drive hardware...

but chargers are not automated and there is no "magsafe" equivalent or similar. Perhaps if they added a charger accessible under the car? Might easier than an articulated automatic arm but even that is no stretch for cars that can navigate on their own if not be directed by the parking/charging lot

They're working on it. Apparently their PM is Doctor Octopus. https://youtu.be/uMM0lRfX6YI

If they want to change behavior they should simply ban abusive users from the network, starting with a 1 day ban and increasing it with each next offense. There are people who will pay the $24/hr, when the cost:benefit analysis favors that choice.

Plus $24 per hour is a cheap parking spot in some cities. I might just park my gas guzzler at a SuperCharger the next time I can't find a reasonable spot.

I'm assuming that the charger only knows you're parked there because it's plugged in. What's to keep a Tesla owner from unplugging the charging cable and leaving the car in the parking spot? Maybe they'll use some of the wireless features in the car?

> they should simply ban abusive users from the network

Frequent chargers are not the issue. People who take up the parking spots are. For someone who lives near a supercharger or for certain businesses (cough, Tesloop) it was customary to park the vehicles overnight. You started early on some long drive, you get off at Culver City or Burbank supercharger around 7-8am and ... congrats, 8/8 or 12/12 spots taken, with none of the charger lights blinking (which means charging has been completed, possibly hours ago).

If someone sells their Telsa car to a third party, and that third party gets charged for parking there, would the initial owner get the bill? Does Tesla require that you inform them of re-sales?

The bill is settled when you take your car in for service.

Good. And then please expand the network to regions and countries they are not in.

There is still not a single supercharger here in Bulgaria although the chart has shown they would set up some 3-4 stations here by 2016.

My local train station has electric charger spots. Teslas never charge, they just use it for premium parking.

A Whole Foods nearby has free charging spots and is headlining a small commercial plaza in the middle of a residential complex. Which basically means that whoever grabs the spot around 7-8pm gets an overnight parking spot, everybody else is welcome to get a quick charge next morning.

A good move - especially as the supply of superchargers begins to struggle to keep up with demand from all the new Model S & Model 3 owners over the next few years.

(Yes, they've announced that supercharging will incur a fee for certain Model 3 owners who reserved after a certain time - but still.)

It's for ALL Model 3 buyers. You have to have configured your car to beat the deadline.

Would be a golden opportunity for supercharger valet service, if the penalty fees were a bit higher.

Refer to them as a valence.

Still surprised they didn't go with modular batteries that could be popped in and out with a robot arm for <5 min recharges.

I guess you'd never know how cycle-worn your new battery would be...

An Israeli company in 2010 collaborated with Renault to develop a car with swappable batteries [1] and they had automatic battery swapping station that could fit new batteries in about a minute [2]. The venture went bust mostly due to mismanagement and questions about the sustainability of its business model due to the high infrastructure cost of building these stations.

Telsa entertained this concept and specifically designed the Model S with floor-mounted batteries to enable easy swapping [3], but then abandoned the idea.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Fluence_Z.E. [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place#Battery-switching... [3] http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/26/tesla-model-s-50-000-ev-s...

If it continues to be an issue they can raise the price per minute significantly and have it all go to charity, keeping a live tracker on how much has gone to what charities.

Since Tesla can auto-drive. Why not have the car auto-drive to the charger, then the charger automatically recognize the Tesla outlet. Once it's done, the car is unplugged and leaves the place.

Possible, no?

Read the article.

Or moves itself into adjacent parking spot once charger is unplugged.

For many of those locations it's easier said than done. Some are inside popular malls, so by the time one finds a good spot on busy days, it might be time for another recharge. Others are on controlled property (Qualcomm HQ in San Diego) where guest parking spots are limited and access to a larger lot is employee-only.

This is addressed in the article.

Anyway, the answer is, the self-connecting and disconnecting chargers aren't ready yet, and even when they are they won't magically appear at every supercharger. Also, the self driving isn't ready yet, and when it is it also won't be available worldwide. Also, where would the car go?

So, people who can afford to drive a 100K car will really be bothered by a $.40/min fee?

Yes, for more people than you might suppose. Being charged (be it ever so little) for "nothing" bothers people.

People who buy 100k cars did not have 100k to buy a car by being wasteful with their money.

Owning a Tesla doesn't mean you're rich. I know people who saved up, used tax breaks, work bonuses, etc to bring one into affordability. Just because they spent money on something they want doesn't mean they don't care about money.

Spending money on anything doesn't mean you are rich. If you have average wealth and earning average income, saving for Tesla means years. At which point it sounds like a poor decision, tho that is not the point.

p.s. I do disagree with OP. This is to deter everyone.

How did they come up with the figure of $0.40 per minute?

I can understand why they say "per Minute" since you think in seconds (which would be too short), minutes (just about right) and hours (which would be too long).

But that $0.40 charge per minute seems odd. Why not $1, why not $0.50, $0.25 or $0.10?

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