Millennials Are Fine Without Fabric Softener; P&G Looks to Fix That | Hacker News Reader

Millennials Are Fine Without Fabric Softener; P&G Looks to Fix That

wsj.com

34 pointslxm62 comments

This is an interesting read about the subject https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_water

I live in a city with hard water and I feel a difference when I do or don't wash with a softener. Without it clothes are somewhat stiff. Washing with water at room temperature helps and no softener is required. I add it only when washing with hot water.

Anyway I'm not buying anything special. Believe it or not, vinagar works as softener. I'm using the cheapest white vinagar (nearly transparent) in the supermarket. Clothes don't have any smell and it's less than a Euro per months of usage. My mother has been using it forever and me too for many years now.

Very important: don't mix it with soap. Use it only if your washing machine has separate compartments for liquid soap and liquid softener. If it's one of those washing machine where you put soap powder and softener powder directly on clothes (I've seen them when I was little and in the USA), no vinegar in there.

I'm older than millennial and don't understand any need or benefit from this product category.

The article suggests that the use of these products will extend the life of your clothes. This is a remarkable claim and it is striking they provide absolutely no evidence for it.

Is there any form of marketing that encourages critical thinking?

I have the same problem with hair conditioner, I've been using it for years and my (long) hair is gotten worse and worse, got tangled and really hard to cumb the next day after washing. I then read an article about hair conditioner and how it becomes a layer of silicon over your hair which first makes it nice and soft but starts to stick together, etc.

I was sceptical but really tired of that problem, so it was either cutting off the long hair or trying something else, so I stopped using hair conditioner. In the beginning it got worse, but after a couple of weeks it got better, mich better. I was able to go for days without washing my hair and still had no problems to comb it, and it was still shiny and all. I never looked back and still had long hair for a couple mor years.

Perhaps it's just not for my hair, but advertising on the telly during my teenager years said that you have to use it, so I did.

All these scented detergents and fabric softeners would cause my back to break out into pimples. I read a tip on reddit to switch to All Free Clear detergent which finally eliminated my problem. So good luck P&G as they will probably just add to the labels "naturally scented".

If I approach the laundry detergent aisle at a store my skin begins to itch.

I'm in this demographic. When I was a teenager and living with my parents, we used liquid fabric softener, but when I went to college and had to deal with a shared laundromat, I pared down my laundry products to make it more convenient: a medium-sized bottle of liquid detergent, and a box of dryer sheets impregnated with fabric softeners.

Now that I'm living on my own, I switched to a giant box of powdered detergent, which I prefer, but would have been more inconvenient to handle in college. I still use the same kind and brand of dryer sheets, and I'm not convinced I'm missing anything.

Dryer sheets seems to help with static buildup in clothes, but apart from that it seems it's less effective than the liquid softener versions

I roll up some aluminum foil to combat static. Reusable and cheap.

On the dryer? Or after you take them out?

In the dryer. The tumbling around makes it a nice smooth ball of aluminum. Bonus: my cat likes to play with them as well.

I don't use any P&G products. Mostly because the abundance of phthalates in their products literally causes me to stop breathing.

Along a similar line, does anyone under the age of 50 use Borax [1]? I assume people must have found it useful for laundry at some point in time, but I wouldn't have the foggiest idea how or why to use it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_Mule_Team_Borax

Never used Borax (except as hand soap). But I have used this: http://mrsstewart.com Another throwback laundry product. (I was inspired to try it when I read they make new clothes look whiter by tinting them blue)

I don't know about new clothes, as bluing works because it's complementary to yellow, which usually means "used". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluing_(fabric)

Also a key ingredient in growing crystals, if I remember my children chemistry experiments correctly.

I use Borax and find it helpful. My water supply doesn't have chlorine in it. The boron reduces problems with mildew. It also allegedly softens the water, but I use baking soda as my primary water softener.

I also have successfully used Borax solution in cleaning of porous surfaces to eradicate mildew problems in areas that bleach doesn't work to eliminate long term.

Can second this. I use it in all my laundry in SF - drastically reduces mildew. I also dissolve it into the hot water I used in my carpet shampooer. I have an allergy to mold, and borax has proven to be extremely effective in reducing mold to tolerable levels.

I'm a millennial.

My wife uses borax to make our laundry detergent.

Under 50.

Used "Terro Ant Killer II", which is syrup that contains borax and works about as well as the original formula that contained arsenic.

I use borax pretty much every day in a biochem lab. 20 g of borax in 1 L of water works really well as a cheap buffer for DNA work.

But I had no idea it was (or how it would be used) for laundry.

Yes, I keep a box in the cupboard because it has lots of household uses apart from laundry. Cleans drains pretty well, good ant killer.

Doesnt alot of research show millenials are exceptionally poor, I wonder how much of not using it is just saving money.

I can't speak for everyone, but I just don't feel like using it. I can't notice a difference. Not worth it.

I'm older than a millenial and I don't ever use it unless its really dry and staticy. When I was in St. Louis I'd use it in the winter. I generate maybe 2 sparks all winter in Seattle no matter how hard I try and shock people.

Another problem they might face: As an adult, I've never used shampoo. I can see that shampoo/conditioner might provide interesting outcomes for people with long hair carefully maintained for aesthetic reasons. For me though, its like fabric softener, a product category from which I will never purchase.

How do you clean your hair?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_poo

Just using running water and a comb is enough. If you have short hair and don't work in particulate rich environments, there's no reason to use shampoo.

If you have a buzz cut (or some other very short hairstyle, as it sounds like the OP does), you might as well just use the same soap you use for your face. It will work fine.

You use soap on your face? I use water. My face turns to parchment when using soap

I saw no hard soap for long time. All soap I use is creamy soft soap. I remember that I had same problem with regular soap when I was young. Modern soap causes a very little harm to face, if any.

A tiny bit of expensive shampoo after soap is works even better. Try to ionize plastic pen with your hair after a soap and after a shampoo. If you wear a hat, it matters.

I'm sorry for the lack of clarification. My morning shower starts with the bar soap on the top of my head and precedes downwards. One could think of this is how the US military now uses the same fuel for aircraft, tanks and trucks. I still wash my hair, but I'm on a mono-soap system. Is this sub-optimal for attracting sexual partners?--I can't say. It is very convenient, however.

Yes, you don't need shampoo if you're bald or cut your hair (very) short

Otherwise, it only goes to add to the stereotype, I guess

And yes, it absolutely does make a difference.

>And yes, it absolutely does make a difference.

No, it absolutely doesn't, if you still wash your hair.

Not to mention you can use ordinary soap or shower gel and it will do just fine.

The proliferation of such BS (non existent back in the day -- the first synthetic shampoos were introduced in the 1930s, with daily shampooing becoming the norm in the US by the 1970s and 1980s) is mostly due to marketing and cargo cult.

> No, it absolutely doesn't, if you still wash your hair.

Oh of course. Because all shampoos have the same alkalinity and same composition, right? If we're talking about supermarket brands I agree they all do have similar compositions.

Sounds like a lot of people here have never washed their hair with something besides common brands.

> Not to mention you can use ordinary soap or shower gel and it will do just fine.

Yes, some shower gels are made as shampoo (some even says in the bottle, but I agree most of them do work fine as shampoo... for a day or two)

> The proliferation of such BS

Do you know what's even better to clean yourself? Diluted caustic soda. It's an excellent grease remover.

>Sounds like a lot of people here have never washed their hair with something besides common brands.

Few of us have experienced the magnificent sound of $1000 Monster hi-fi cables either...

Yes, people obviously pay $1000 for top shampoo brands

Over a few years, yes, they do, with some "top shampoo brands" being $20-$30 or more, and people buy one every month or so. Heck, some people spend more than $1000 on shampoo and other products per year.

In contrast, people don't replace $1000 hi-fi cables for decades.

Though of course the point of the metaphor was the pointlessness and "unscientific" cult nature of both purchases, not that the total amount spend is the same.

> being $20-$30 or more, and people buy one every month

You're overestimating the cost and purchase frequency of it. Cost per year is at least 5x less than your numbers.

> Diluted caustic soda. It's an excellent grease remover.

Unless you get the dilution wrong, in which case it's an excellent skin remover.

thats because fabric softener is a scam. clothing doesnt need oil added to it. its gross.

if downy didnt make their product with copious fragrances and dyes it would just be like a bottle of crisco.

Much like virtually everything in the personal care category. Shampoo is a scam. Conditioner is a scam. Lotions and washes and creams are scams. Antibacterial xyz is a scam.

Hot water and plain soap work wonders all by themselves.

Not only is antibacterial soap a scam (you don't need it), it also causes antibiotic resistance.

There are lots of products I consume that are not necessary or are even a luxury, yet I would not consider any of them a scam.

I think what's being suggested here is that these products provide no utility (or even negative utility in the case of antibiotic-resistance-generating antibacterial soaps) and so you're being tricked into buying them for no valid reason.

There may be some products you actually do consume for no good reason, but note that even if a product serves no real purpose, it can still have value to you, even if just by making you feel good about owning or using it.

You could say that all of fashion is a "scam", because cheap, plain-looking clothes can protect you from the elements just as well as expensive, extravagant clothes. But nevertheless the latter can serve a purpose, such as (for example) social signaling that can enhance your reproductive success -- so it has evolutionary utility. Same with fancy cars, more or less.

If they also don't do what they claim, they are a scam.

A $10.000 pair of shoes doesn't claim to do anything more than a $100 pair of shoes, except maybe being more luxurious and lasting.

Heh, right now it's 10F and my hands are bloody and busted open from getting extremely dry and chapped after a few hours in the cold. Lotion would absolutely help right now...if I happened to own any! Alas, I am a tech nerd!

Likewise, this time of year I'm reminded by nature to buy a bottle of really good quality moisturizing shampoo. My experience has also suggested any conditioner you can buy at Walmart is a scam, but for certain heads and certain climates, spending more on the good stuff makes the difference between your hair being anemic or healthy. I switch to nice shampoo every winter and year after year the difference is night and day within a week or two.

Fabric softener on the other hand...what a waste!

Aveeno is your friend, if you can get it where you live.

Olive oil works well as a lotion as long as your skin isn't naturally super greasy.

A bottle of the most expensive olive oil is still cheaper per fluid oz. than a bottle of lotion.

Yeah, the tricky part is the "naturally greasy". Also I want to keep objects I touch clean

There are mosturizing creams that are much less greasy

Ill give the edge to coco butter derivatives over olive oil.

https://www.amazon.com/Palmers-Cocoa-Butter-Soothing-Itchy/d... https://www.amazon.com/Palmers-Cocoa-Butter-Formula-Therapy/... https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002A4D5YM/

> Shampoo is a scam. Conditioner is a scam.

That's why I don't use those either (in shower). Usually I wash with water only, sometimes with some bar soap.

For killing bacteries in my armpits (which causes the bad smell of sweat, thus "deodorant") I use coconut oil. Works superbly, but makes stains in shirts as a downside.

Really? That works? Im interested in learning more. Mind sharing?

Coconut oil will most likely feed the bacteria than kill it

That's what I thought too, but my empirical testing shows it more effective to reduce smell of sweat than commercial deodorants (e.g. AXE) or no deodorant at all. Haven't found any scientifical studies on the exact subject.

My guess would be that feeding them with something different probably makes its byproducts smell different as well

(Or they actually die because they don't like it, but bacteria is famous for processing whatever it can get)

There are many type of bacteries on human skin, but body odor seems to be caused by E. Coli[1].

I found at least one study showing that coconut oil _extract_ has negative effect on E. Coli growth[2]. Of course, this is not same as using virgin coconut oil.

There's also a study[3] showing that Coconut Oil may boost the growth for some other bacteria.

Anyway, personally I've found it to work, whatever the mechanism is.

[1] http://www.medicaldaily.com/what-causes-body-odor-small-amou...

[2] http://innovareacademics.in/journals/index.php/ijpps/article...

[3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24328700

Nice! Thanks for the sources

You must not have dry skin. 3-5x daily application of Aquaphor keeps my hands mildly dry rather than cracked and bleeding. And it works great on your face to help prevent wind burn while skiing.

Aquaphor is habit forming. You may want to switch T plain Vaseline, which does not apparently cause your body to reduce its own natural oil production. Source: friend is an RN.

If I use the "wrong" brand or no shampoo and conditioner, I'll get terrible dandruff that can even lead to it mixed with dried blood.

If I use Aveeno brand shampoo and conditioner, this never happens, ever. Not a single white flake. Nothing else has done it. Totally brand loyal and that stuff isn't cheap, nor is it advertised as a dandruff product

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