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Comment by SwellJoe | Hacker News Reader

I'm a bit ashamed to say it, as I'm sure the people involved are all very nice, and I don't wish them any ill, but I'm smiling to learn that the company behind Veggie Tales is dead. I was pretty much disgusted when I watched a few episodes with my nephew. It's rather obnoxious Christian propaganda, and I really don't think kids should be exposed to that kind of thing in the guise of cute cartoons.

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Really? I've only seen a couple a while back, but I thought the preaching was really tame; it was mostly be kind, don't lie, etc. kinds of messages with a isn't God wonderful tacked on the end.

So perhaps I'm overly sensitive, but in the couple of episodes I saw, it seemed pretty overtly superstitious, to me. My sister (the mother of the nephew in question), who isn't religious, also defended them as being "ethical rather than religious lessons"...and she saw a lot more of them than I did. So, perhaps I judge too harshly. But when/if I have kids, I expect I'll avoid the religious stuff when looking for ways to entertain them.

You don't intend for your children to make up their own minds about religion?

Yes, when they're old enough to understand that adults often tell lies.

Other things my kids won't learn about, unless they want to explore it from the perspective of human superstitions or in fantasy stories:

Astrology

Witchcraft

Area 51

Scientology

Sasquatch

Vampires

Elves

Oh, yeah, and can't forget Eskimos

Of course, in the context of fantasy, all of this stuff is fine. But I don't think adults should tell kids that things that are clearly fantasy are, in fact, reality. Kids actually believe things that adults tell them, so I think you should try to tell the truth to kids as much as possible.

and if your lengthy list contains a mistake somewhere?

It might...but here's the thing, there's no evidence that it does. Religious folks don't believe in hundreds or thousands of gods, just like I disbelieve the existence of them (Christians don't believe in Zeus, Krishna, etc.), we just disagree on the number of gods to disbelieve.

Should we teach kids that all of those hundreds or thousands of gods might be real? No? Why not? Couldn't we be wrong about them not existing? So, if, in fact, one of those gods is real, you have an imperceptibly better chance of telling your children the truth than I do. But if, in fact, all of them are human creations, then you're just confusing them with a bunch of old superstitions....all of which have some pretty crazy ideas about how the world works and how humans ought to treat one another. Sure, some are better than others, and some are more modern than others, but if they aren't true, why confuse kids with odd fictions in the guise of "One Truth"?

there's a big difference between teaching that something is true, and providing information about mainstream ideas (including criticism of them) to help children make their own decisions.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on the value of exposing kids to Christian cartoons that have little other merit (I think most kids programming has little other merit, so I'm not just picking on Veggie Tales...there are many things I'd rather kids not watch, most of which don't have Christian beliefs as one of the things they're teaching). And that's OK.

We aren't disagreeing about the merit of that show. We are disagreeing about the merit of the parent making all the decisions about what the kid is allowed to watch.

And really I think you're just having a semantical disagreement when your core beliefs are pretty similar.

Core beliefs about religion might be similar, but not about attitudes to parenting. I've only expressed a small part of my disagreement.

"We are disagreeing about the merit of the parent making all the decisions about what the kid is allowed to watch."

We are? OK, I guess that's something to think about. I kinda think it's part of a parents job to decide what young children see and hear. Hard core pornography, extreme violence, cultist propaganda of most kinds, and various forms of hate speech, all fall into the category of "things young children shouldn't have to figure out yet", for me. They'll see/hear it all when they get a little older, and that's OK, but we're talking about the Veggie Tales age group: 3-5 years old, or so.

I kinda think it's part of a parents job to decide what young children see and hear.

Yeah, that is the thing I've been disagreeing about.

I don't think "stuff the parent thinks is good/bad" is a reasonable criterion for what a child gets to see or not. It should be the child's decision, with advice from his parent.

The fundamental issue is that if you can't persuade someone of your ideas, that is a bad reason to force him. If your child wants to see a religious video despite your advice, then he should see it. If it's full of dumb ideas it won't be very persuasive anyway, right? Certainly not more persuasive than the wise parent..?

How do you give a three or four year old decision making power with regards to the media they consume? Buy some DVDs and let them pick the ones with the best cover?

Most of my practical advice is nothing too special. You could get video previews for some shows, or get descriptions or read reviews and explain what it's about to child and see if he likes the sound of it. You can offer to get more of the same kind as something he likes. Parents already do these things at least sometimes.

What parents don't generally do is have an attitude of trying to get whatever their child likes. They do that "within reasonable limits". Reasonable being a matter of their own judgment. They have preconceived ideas about what shows are bad, and try to avoid their child finding out about them instead of refuting the bad ideas. They fear "bad influences", instead of thinking that the worse an idea is, the less persuasive it is.

One consequence of this attitude is that sometimes children want something, and their parents refuse, supposedly for the child's own good, and the child gets upset. Plenty of parents would, if their kid saw an episode of Veggie Tales (or whatever) and liked and repeated some ideas from it, say "omg the evil christians are polluting his mind" and forbid him from seeing the second episode that he's looking forward to. That's the wrong approach. Keeping people ignorant of ideas you think are bad is not the path to the truth.

FYI the 7 or 8 downmods i got in this thread came in the space of a few seconds. Likely downmodding without reading.

I think someone found the discussion unattractive, and I kind of have to agree. We should have left it at "agree to disagree".

"The fundamental issue is that if you can't persuade someone of your ideas, that is a bad reason to force him."

Classic. I wish I could be there the day you try to persuade a 3 year old with your ideas. Have you met any young children, ever? You'll have a cantankerous and unhappy 80-pounder on your hands in no time, as they watch crap, consume crap, and learn crap from mainstream television and movies. I'm more laissez faire than most when it comes to kids, as I was raised in a very relaxed household and I think it works out very well in encouraging independent thought, but it's just stupid to imagine that a 3 year old can make wise decisions about their consumption. They simply don't have the knowledge to make reasonable choices, and you've never had the infinite "why?" conversation if you think they do.

See, I told you we disagree. I'm going to drop it now since you aren't interested in my ideas.

You must have missed the "3 minute wrapup" at the end. They do light preaching throughout, then hammer you with the "Things you should have learned about god and the "right way" " at the end of each show.

I agree with the original post. It's christian propoganda. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it never belonged in the mainstream. THAT is why sales of videos never went above 7 million per year. There is no market for a "christian god" with a lot of people. That is the thing he never mentions. His market was limited from the start, and he STILL doesn't see that...

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