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Comment by _jcwu | Hacker News Reader

I agree with you, but only people who want to make big buck should move to the Bay Area. As you concluded later, money is not everything. I am young and about to finish school, but I am moving away from the Bay Area and even move to a different country. I do not care about the high salaries here, as I just do not like the lifestyle here. So, I'd say that the Bay Area is for people who do not mind having to work 24/7 (mind work, not physically being in the office 24/7). Mostly, this is people who love tech a lot and want to innovate all the time (start up people).

I for one care more about less stress, less inequality, etc. and decided that the Bay Area is not for me.

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My experience doesn't line up with your preconceived notions of the Bay Area at all. I've worked at three different jobs in San Francisco, and all of them were standard 9-5 jobs. I've worked weekends under 5 times. Most of my friends are in the same situation.

Sure if you want to work at an early stage startup, you can grind yourself into a paste. But there are plenty of jobs here where that's not the case.

Maybe it is because I live in the South Bay. But here it seems that everyone is just going to work and back home.. and that's it. There is nothing else going on here, but work work work.

It might be your specific location. It also might be a combination of "selection bias" -- people tend to be friends with people who are like them in some way -- and psychological filtering where you just don't see anything else for some reason.

I remember reading a piece about alcoholism where it was describing an alcoholic who concluded that everyone drinks a great deal and just doesn't admit it because that was what their social circle was like. I rarely drink alcohol and have known plenty of people like me, so, no, not everyone drinks.

Most people suffer confirmation bias. We look for confirmation of what we believe to be true about a thing. It is unusual for someone to actively seek more objective data and try to determine what the actual truth is. Most of us default to trying to fit the world to our preconceived notions of it.

I think it comes down to culture.

The culture of the South Bay is relatively non-existent outside of small pockets like Palo Alto, Los Gatos, Mountain view, and maybe Santana Row. It's geared toward raising kids and family life in general.

I am having enormous difficulty parsing that comment. I have tried to just let it go, but I am failing at that, and I am seriously struggling to reply in a way that does not sound like snark.

Could you clarify what you mean? Because it sounds like either you are saying "Culture only exists in tiny parts of certain places, no place else in the South Bay even has a culture" (which is utterly nonsensical) or maybe you are saying "People who have kids and put family life first are not part of any culture." (again, a big fat nope).

I'm guessing what was meant by culture was "cultural life", as in "things to do outside" (think the Arts & Culture section of the newspaper).

I look for that type of thing and seem to find an alright selection. I don't always select, but there's a selection.

A culture of people with no kids doesn't sound like a real culture to me.

I think what he is saying is that the South Bay is completely without culture, unless you count strip malls and chain restaurants.

"Chain restaurants" Really? I don't even live in the Bay area but I visit a fair bit on business and I don't know the last time I've eaten at a chain either in the city or the South Bay.

But the South Bay is basically suburbia, SJ technically being a "city" notwithstanding. So just like pretty much every other urban area in the US, there's enormously more "culture" (in the Arts, Theater, and Culture section of the newspaper sense) in the city, SF in this case, than in the suburbs.

Boston/Cambridge are exactly the same way. I live well West and like it but if I want to go to see a show or music performance, 95% of the time I'm going to drive into town.

I thought the same thing of the first place I lived in my early twenties after moving away from my home town. Then my older sister came to visit and schooled me in how blind I was.

Culture is a human artifact and although it exists partly out there in the world we create, a big piece of it lives inside us and informs us of the proper way to interact with both other people and the spaces we share. Sometimes, people who decry the lack of culture of an area are telling you more about themselves than about the area.

Interesting reply, it seems you've misconstrued the intent of my post.

I was merely sharing my observation that certain areas in the South Bay tend to have more stuff to do (i.e. a downtown). Not sure why you took that as me denigrating parents and families. Perhaps I was being vague.

I agree that culture is something, as you put it, that is kept inside of us. However, people don't exist in a vaccum. We are very much influenced by the environment we live in. Most people don't exist in a cultural vacuum where they don't interact with the larger cultural forces in their environment.

My (admittedly anecdotal) experience has been that the South Bay is primarily a work culture. Having lived both in SF and the South Bay, I can tell you that both are offering very different answers for the same question, regardless of whether or not you are single, married, or have kids.

Interesting reply, it seems you've misconstrued the intent of my post.

Yeah, no. Please do not assume that a reply of mine to one of three replies to my actual request for clarification is some kind of commentary on you.

I agree that culture is something, as you put it, that is kept inside of us.

That isn't at all what I said. I said it is a human artifact and part of it is stuff out in the world and part of it is a thing inside us, which is very different from saying it is "only" inside us, which is what your framing strongly suggests you read it to mean. In which case, it is you who are misconstruing my comments.

My (admittedly anecdotal) experience has been that the South Bay is primarily a work culture.

Thank you for clarifying.

Try Meetup or joining ridiculous activities like crossfit. I read someone here call them "secular cults" - why do you think people go to church everywhere else?

Going straight from work to home and staying there is indicative of a "work work work" culture? That's some doublespeak. I have lots of hobbies (and kids) at home, and wish I could do more of that.

The South Bay is a residential suburb. It doesn't have much of a nightlife. The same can be said about most of the places people live in this country outside of the densest urban centers.

If that's not what you want, then by all means move. But recognize that this is exactly the sort of stability many people strive hard for.

Whether or not that's true, your lifestyle isn't dictated by what "everyone" does, it's only dictated by what you do. I know lots of people who are workaholics or spend all of their non-work time with their families, and I know as many or more people with rich and varied lifestyles that go out and do stuff with friends all the time. It's what you make of it, like many things in life.

Sadly, what everyone does determines what is available to me. They are not going to create nightlife and other interesting stuff if there is no target demographic.

I don't know what exactly you're looking at, because from my perspective "everyone" is an insane exaggeration on your part. I know countless people who run, cycle, ski, mountain bike, play soccer, go backpacking, play board games, travel, partake in live music, and so on and so forth.

Sure there are disproportionately more workaholics in the area. There are also disproportionately fewer people who work 9-5 then go home and veg out on their couch. To me, the lifestyle here is rich and amazing. Where I grew up, which was in an equally large and cosmopolitan city, it's too cold or too hot for 4-6 months of the year to do much outdoors, salaries weren't high enough for people to routinely go to expensive restaurants or travel, and the geography is nowhere near as beautiful or interesting.

Maybe you should look inward more and take charge of your life; it may be that you're hanging around people who focus entirely on work, and so your perception is skewed.

I totally agree. If people want to gripe about high rent/COL or lack of public transit that is fine and legitimate. But complaining about lack of things to do just doesn't add up. You can go hiking in Marin or in the open space preserves on the peninsula. You can drink great beer at several breweries or go to Napa/Sonoma to wine taste. You can go skiing in Tahoe. You can go to Yosemite or Sequoia. You can ride your bike in the mountains/hills on the peninsula. You can go to several different beaches. There is a good restaurant scene (albeit expensive). There are NBA, NFL, and NHL teams if you are into sports. As someone who moved here from Illinois, I think the variety of things to do in the Bay Area is huge.

But all the places you mentioned are at least 1.5 hours drive from San Jose. You can't expect me to drive 1.5 hours just to not have to sit at home every time I want to have some fun? I love day trips, but I don't want to have to to a day trip every weekend or every day I want to have some fun. Compare that to LA or San Diego where you don't have to drive far to have fun (nightlife for example) or awesome beaches. All I see in San Jose is empty streets after 9pm. There is nothing going on in this town besides work.

Sounds like you're simply living in the wrong place. Within 30 minutes, I can drive from SJ to a number of great hiking trails or take my road bike to some super fun hills. Of course the streets are empty after 9pm... people want to be able to get outside when the sun is up!

I guess that could be true. South San Jose seems to be much better.

Nightlife in the south bay is rather lame.

But here's one thing I've found: People who really want to have fun find a way. There are small pockets all over the bay. SJ downtown is a little lame but it is getting better

We do have hiking trails in the area too, particularly up in the Santa Cruz Mountains, and Henry Coe State Park is a little less than an hour away. There are a number of wineries in Los Gatos and Saratoga, around half an hour away. I'm less familiar with the microbrew scene around here, but I know there's mead in Sunnyvale (~30m) and a handful of larger "micros" like Rock Bottom in Campbell and Lazy Dog in Cupertino. NHL is downtown, NFL is ~30 min away in Santa Clara, etc.

You're overstating the issue. It's not New York or San Francisco, for sure, and we sure do need better rapid transit but you're definitely not an hour and a half from everything cool. You're more like half an hour or so. You just need to look for it.

Well, everyone around me pretty much determines what is available to me. No one is going to build a zoo in San Jose if no one is coming. San Jose does not even have something like University Ave in Palo Alto. SJ Downtown is horrible and certainly not a place I'd like to go to have fun. What I am saying is, that compared to other cities such as LA or San Diego, San Jose is dead. Nothing besides working is happening. Considering how much I am paying to live here, that is disappointing.

Santana Row or Lincoln in Willow Glen would be the analog to University Ave. Both are pretty nice to hang out in.

Campbell also has a nice downtown; while it's not San Jose, it's surrounded by San Jose and is basically the same metro and is VTA-accessible. There's also Saratoga and Los Gatos, but those are further out.

Downtown, I'll grant you, though. San Pedro Square can be OK, and the area nearer the University has some quirky stuff, but it has a ways to go. It's gotten somewhat better over the years, though, and I think BART coming to the area may accelerate that a bit since it can actually be a destination.

You need to broaden your horizons. There are tons of things to do in the South Bay.

* Rock climbing * Scuba diving in Monterey * Bicycling on the bay trail * Board gaming clubs * Meetups * Wineries * The boardwalk in Santa Cruz

You can even take an hour train ride straight to SF and spend the day with the snobs and homeless. And then take the same train home to a place that doesn't stink like urine.

When he said "mind work", I took it as the constant, 24 hour stress I experienced while living there. Which sometimes is completely unrelated to work.

The insane commutes, the work culture, the high rent / COL, the culture of trying to look as rich/smart/successful as possible, the sue happy people, the fact that there's absolutely nothing else to do other than work, etc really wore down on me.

I lived in the south bay though... admittedly it seemed slightly better in SF. Less money grobbing and more hipsters. But it looks like all that is going out the window very quickly. The south bay culture is spreading like a cancer.

Yeah, same. I live in San Jose and feel 100% like you. I haven't even worked yet and only went to school here and I am already exhausted.

This is why I chose not to live here after graduation.

The crazy part about it is it's just going to get worse and worse. I was born and raised in SJ... since the 80s this tech stuff has been slowly building on top of itself like some sort of tumor, and the city does absolutely nothing to stop the gentrification and overall shittyness of the money-money-money mindset from taking over. I'm 23 now, most of my friends and 100% of my parents friends (lived there since the 60s) have moved out because of the constant influx of migrant workaholics.

It's given me a very cynical view on life. I really don't know where else to move, I feel like I need to leave the country as well, or at least leave California. Where are you going, if you don't mind me asking?

I am moving (back) to Europe (Germany). I have a European Passport, so I don't have to worry about a visa, like I would have to if I decided to stay here.

Ah, interesting. I'm German too. Unfortunately all my ties to Germany have been severed when my Oma died.

Come to Berlin, the startup scene is great by european standards, the city is cheap and super diverse. Great food, great nightlife but cold winters ;)

I felt the same way after living in SF for 6 years. I moved up to Portland, though they probably find me to be an annoying migrant too :/

FWIW, it's not the "migrant" part in itself that irritates me. It's the whole thing, "migrant workaholics". I hate the people who moved to my hometown for the sole reason to make money and go back to their home country, with no intention to integrate.

If you get exhausted by working a lot, it's probably best to not work at a small startup or a company that is growing super fast. There are larger (usually public) companies in the Bay Area where people can work 9-6 type jobs and be great at their jobs. It can be team dependent, but there are people who work totally normal hours at google, apple, linkedin, etc. There are a lot of other mature companies people work at as well. It's not as sexy to say you work for them, but they pay you a respectable salary and don't have to take over your life. That said, ANY job can take over your life if you let it, whether that job is in Portland, Austin, Chicago, or San Francisco (not that it is necessarily a bad thing to have your job be your life).

Not everyone has the same experiences with the Bay Area - I live in the Valley and my commute is better than when I lived in DC (where even going < 2 miles to work took longer than it takes for me to go 7 miles by bus currently, even with direct routes in both cases), and I enjoy running/playing board games/hanging out with friends greatly.

For me, it's mostly been great.

Agreed though I'm coming from the opposite perspective. Despite the traffic, I'm willing to put up with it in DC because the caliber of people is entirely different and far superior to any experience I've had in SFBay.

I've carefully cultivated non-tech friends in SF/South/East Bay, to the point where I actually need to meet more tech people now since I have no idea what work life is like at other companies.

It's been worthwhile and we do plenty of stuff, but you have to be prepared to drive very long distances to see anyone. And many people who don't get into tech move away, so practically everyone is younger than me (and male) and can't afford the hipster restaurant visiting hobbies.

Oh, but the commute here is really not that bad compared to other American cities that aren't "world tier" (LA, Atlanta, DC) because those cities refuse to build mass transit.

> DC

I'm assuming you've never paid us a visit :( DC literally has the second largest mass transit system in the country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_rapid_tr...

Sorry, meant the suburbs I guess. Some friends in the military and government definitely complain about how long it takes to drive a short distance.

I've only ridden the Metro once, yeah.

I mean, I'm in the suburbs... Haha

Assuming they can keep it from catching on fire or de-railing. I'm happy to be out of NOVA/MD/DC.

I lived in Vienna, VA for a while, so I'm pretty familiar with all the failings of WMATA. And there are many. But...and it's a big "but", if you've lived in any major non-coastal city in the US you might think that DC's Metrorail is at least a public rail system, which is better than many cities have.

It's sad that in the US, you have to take what you can get, and the reasons why the US doesn't have good public transportation have been discussed here ad nauseum, so I won't even flog that dead horse again.

Sure, but when the density gets too high, you require public transportation to get around. I used to live in Falls Church. 20 years ago it only took 20 minutes to drive 5 miles to Tysons Corner (still crazy). Now it takes 45, but you can take the metro.

I've lived in the South Bay my whole life and have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. There are subcultures of workaholic stress magnets, but they are easily avoided. I work 40 hour weeks, have non-tech hobbies and weekends are sacred. Your experience may be typical of the crowd you hang with, but not the valley as a whole.

I'm also mystified at the assertion that SF would be better in this respect. The conventional view is that SF is more status seeking and elitist while the South Bay neighborhoods are more laid back, or at least more diverse in their subgroup compositions.

The cost of living is insane, yes, although astronomical tech salaries entirely compensate for you and me. (Sucks for people who work retail though, and schoolteachers, police etc.)

I've lived in San Jose from birth to 19 years old (worked one year at a startup) and I can see where you're coming from, but you must be blind if you have no idea what I'm talking about. The friendships I cultivated while growing up there are sacred, but those friendships would have been impossible if I didn't meet them while growing up. If I moved to SJ from somewhere else at 19+ I know I would be miserable, because like it or not most people are exactly like I described in my original comment. The type of people we grew up with and the type of people who migrate here are VASTLY DIFFERENT. Thankfully you and me could avoid them, since we were "fortunate" enough to grow up in the south bay. I'm thankful for my unique experience, but it's just that: a unique experience.

As far as SF goes, I was talking about 5-6 years ago. I've heard its way worse these days. And it's going to keep getting worse, because the south bay is a cancer. It wasn't until I moved away when I realized that.

I don't know what to say. Get out more, I guess? Change your group of friends? There's a million people that live here and I'm always meeting new people and striking up conversations. Some stick, some don't. I actually don't hang out with anyone from my childhood anymore, as I've made so many new friends over the years.

I'm glad things worked out for you in any case.

> Get out more, I guess?

I don't think I'm getting my point across correctly. Sure. There are niches in the bay area that are great, and I'm sure I'd meet many interesting people there, if I decided to stay.

However, there's a certain point where enough is enough. It's not like this problem I'm describing is just the effect of a one-off bubble that will go away soon. It is going to get worse and worse; like it has always been. Housing prices / COL are going to go up and people are going to be constantly forced out of their homes and have to relocate and compromise. If you fuck up in your career or make one bad move with your finances, you are done. Bye bye bay area. If it doesn't happen to you it will definitely happen to your friends. It's just a horrible existence and I am honestly baffled you don't see this despite living there your whole life. The only way I could conceive of you not seeing this is if you and your friends have something like $2M saved up and don't need to worry about finances.

You are very fortunate then. My experience here in the Bay Area mirrors kLeeIsDead's. I get up at 6AM and come home from work at 7-8PM, and am mentally and physically exhausted daily from the whole rat race + commute. Totally different from other places I've lived where I could have a life. Fortunately I'm currently not subject to a lot of weekend work.

> The insane commutes, the work culture, the high rent / COL, the culture of trying to look as rich/smart/successful as possible, the sue happy people, the fact that there's absolutely nothing else to do other than work, etc really wore down on me.

Oh god, you really quantified the cruft that made me hate the place. The bay is sublime in its beauty but could only be perfect for me if the population was subbed out for Austin's or DC's (which are in many ways opposite, but they're also far more distant from SFBay than they are from each other).

> the fact that there's absolutely nothing else to do other than work

> I lived in the south bay though

Well, yeah

Over the years I've noticed the south bay culture spreading up to SF and Oakland, and down to Santa Cruz. They haven't been hit as bad as Palo Alto and San Jose, but I'm afraid that the culture will continue to spread as long as the software industry continues to be lucrative (and other industries become less so).

> My experience doesn't line up with your preconceived notions of the Bay Area at all

Your phrasing is needlessly incendiary and possibly mistaken, since parent says

>> I am young and about to finish school, but I am moving away from the Bay Area and even move to a different country.

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