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Comment by jeroen94704 | Hacker News Reader

This article seems to assume you're single and not in a hurry to start a family. I'd be interested to read an article "Does it make sense for a programmer with a wife and kids to move to the bay area". I secretly suspect the answer will be "no", since no matter how you slice it, a 4-bedroom house in the Bay Area won't be reachable until you are well on your way to, say, 40 or so.

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I interviewed over phone and skype with a Bay area company not too long ago. In between interviews, since things were going well, I started looking for places to live. I have 2 kids, and currently live in a 4200 sq ft house in Texas. I was more than fine with downsizing, but not at the cost of eating up all my salary to live with my family in an apartment that was barely acceptable when I was single. My kids are currently in a top school district here, and to send them to a top (public) school in the Bay area was insanely expensive. The salary I would have received ($130k range) was no where near enough to get me into a 2k sq ft home near good schools. As I researched areas, I just couldn't understand how the salaries were so low, and the cost of homes/apartments so high. But if you have no family to support, take on roommates and are fine with 500 sq ft to live in, then it will be mostly ok to live there.

I had almost the exact same situation, except I'm up in MN. Top notch schools and no crime, 4200sqft home, etc etc. The salaries in SV are way too low to ever consider a move.

Not disputing your conclusions, but I wonder what the hell people do with 4200sqft houses. I grew up in a very normal 5 bedroom multi-level house, 4 person family. It was 2400sqft. So were everyone else's houses. My house in the valley is about half that size, for 2 of us. Given infinite money, sure I'd like a bigger house. 2k, maybe 2500. I just cannot fathom why anybody would even WANT 4k+. I hear of people living in 6000sqft mansions and it just seems so insane. Especially when they're paying $500/mo on A/C in AZ or TX. Just all seems so wasteful in a way that expensive real estate isn't.

I get what you're saying, we were in a 1800sqft home before this and a 780sqft home before that. After the first month or so in a space this size, it doesn't feel that big. You just get kind of used to it, although you kind of appreciate the space. The only time we notice the size of it is when we get back from a vacation. Also, once you have kids, homes feel much smaller. Before kids, we lived in a 600sqft rental duplex and a 800sqft loft and they both felt like more than enough room.

As for energy costs, in MN homes are very well insulated, you frequently have a fair amount of trees providing shade, and you have a basement that's 30-40% of your sqft, so heating and cooling costs aren't quite as dramatic, even when it's -20F like it will be this weekend.

> After the first month or so in a space this size, it doesn't feel that big. You just get kind of used to it, although you kind of appreciate the space.

Who does the cleaning, you or your partner? I never got used to cleaning a larger space. It is definitely a huge waste of time, vacuum bots only help marginally. Also annoying is walking or especially moving something from one end of the dwelling to the other.

We finally gave up on cleaning our 1150sqft house ourselves and hired cleaners. I feel like a failure, being unable to keep my own personal space clean, but the extra time is nice.

Went to an open house once in a huge ranch. When we decided to leave, I noted how long it took us to walk from the bedroom to the front door. Man I'd hate to dash back in the house "really quick" for something I forgot. I guess that's a first world problem though!

You fill it full of junk. If you are a single male not addicted to vanity you can likely fit all your belongings in the backseat of a car. My largest belongings were the computer and the truck load of military clothing. Women tend to accumulate more stuff than men regardless of vanity. When you get kids people just give you more stuff than you need (or want) for the kids. The only limitation on the ever increasing accumulation is the space available.

Honestly, the two biggest rooms in this house just store stuff. I can absolutely live without that space. I do enjoy having an extra bedroom to use for... fill in the blank. I bought my house as a foreclosure for 125k and now Zillow lists it for 235k (a bit inflated). The value of my house is about the down payment on a house in San Jose and what I paid is half that.

I have a 2900sq ft home in Texas and we spend next to nothing on heating and AC. Our electric bill per month averages around $160 and peaks around $200 in the summer when we run the AC a bit harder. More than half the expense there is all the electronics in the house, primarily: kitchen utilities, computers, and large screens.

Personally, we wanted the neighborhood, and also both my wife and I grew up very poor (i.e., we'd never lived in a really nice house). So we bought a mid-size house in a really nice neighborhood (over bought a little). That's why I am personally very happy with downsizing. But not at the cost of paying 4x what I am paying now.

But as already said by others, you fill the space and get used to it. There are times it's really nice to have so much space (holidays with family, birthday parties), and other times it's not (cleaning, a/c). Having a dedicated movie theater room is nice too.

4200 sq ft. is mid-size to you?? Wow!

I lived in a 600 sq ft. mobile home in the bay area with my wife and son. It was a bit cramped but not too bad. Now we're in Munich in a place that's...maybe 900 sq ft.? And it feels like a pretty good size, just wish we had a garage. 4200 just blows my mind. To me, I think having that much space would feel like a burden.

No, 4200 isn't mid-size to me, it's mid-size for the neighborhood. It's a freaktastic mansion to me. I grew up with 6 people in a 1000 sq ft space (we moved a lot, so sometimes more, sometimes less).

But, you are right, this much space does feel like a burden frequently, which is why we are moving and I plan on downsizing. A little.

Dedicated movie theater WOULD be nice -- I realize if we had kids combining a living room + entertainment room + playroom is all a bit much. And it would mean either no office or no spare bedroom, if one of the room was taken up by kids.

Of course, it wouldn't take 4x the space we have now to get all that, but I definitely get it a little bit.

> but I wonder what the hell people do with 4200sqft houses.

tools & supplies for a variety of hobbies that involve the physical world. guest bedroom(s) for visitors. a decent kitchen so two can do real cooking at the same time. book cases. a laundry room that doesn't involve limboing under ducting.

Yea, you have to set your expectations lower here in the Bay Area. A 2K square foot home is absolutely ENORMOUS out here, especially for a single family. And good school neighborhoods are extremely expensive. You're not going to afford that combination working at ANY tech company besides maybe a few outlier high-salary companies.

I'm a senior engineer. I don't want to move to the Bay (not even in the US, and I love where I live), but I really wish I could make the money I can make there.

I'm somewhat pondering an Evil Scheme where I start a one-to-one "subcontracting" firm, where a plain-bad programmer who would never otherwise make it in a startup environment can hire someone [me] to do all their work for them—and maybe even guide them through their interviews with a concealed earpiece. Basically, the company would have "actually" hired me, and the person in the startup's office would just be serving as a human proxy for my skills.

Of course, that's effectively just a hack to get around the idiotic policies companies have against hiring remote workers for local salaries; and one that would cost quite a bit of salary (the proxy would still have to get paid, after all.) But I bet it would still turn out better than a non-Bay-Area wage.

Or just find a company that pays remote engineers SV salaries. They exist.

We (family of four, parents 40ish years old) are fortunate enough to be somewhat location independent with the stipulation that we have to be in US/Pacific timezone to keep sane hours. We looked at the Bay Area one more time this year before choosing Reno. Much lower taxes, much better housing choices at our affordability level, general convenience and outdoor recreation in and around Tahoe were the attraction. This area has long been a landing spot for retirees from the BA but it's now booming with younger people and families. It's improving quickly. For someone who owns a business and has some location independence, it's a great choice. Also commercial rents are much more startup-friendly if you need offices and such. A meeting in SF is only a 4 hour drive away. Daily flights to SF and San Jose if you're in a hurry.

Yeah I agree. I am single, healthy, and car-less. I pay $1500 a month rent for a pretty nice place, and have a avg software engineer salary, and I feel very comfortable, even paying for a large student loan. The real kicker is that I was living in this same situation for $50k salary before it doubled, and still felt I had some disposable income that I could save up. However, I can't imagine still feeling comfortable having all of the expenses that come with a family. I think that's what triggers the threshold for that extreme cost of living in SF. But again, for a young person with a tech salary and the very minimum in financial obligations, I think living here is easily doable.

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