Hacker News Reader

Comment by laurent123456 | Hacker News Reader

The article doesn't mention that but another possible factor is that life is not that great over there either. If you are not Chinese, you'll always be a foreigner there, even if you spend ten years in the same city, so that makes it difficult to integrate. You'll also have to deal with the Chinese administration for the visa, residence permit, etc. which is quite a pain. It's definitely a great place to visit or even to spend a few years, but it's not that welcoming if you want to live there more permanently.

View on HN

I agree, having arrived in USA 7 years ago, I have seen that its much easier to integrate in United States, especially if you live on East Coast or SF/LA. Sure there are visa and green card hurdles, but as a society Americans are probably more accepting of immigrants than any other country, except maybe Canada. Of course my experience is as a relatively well-off indian studying in United States, other will have a different experience.

This is my observation: If you're Indian, being "relatively well-off" is not your only advantage: (White) Americans tend to view you in more favorable terms. It's almost as if we welcome you with open arms.

I am an Indian in the US. I get the general idea of what you are saying, but I should note that it has a strong implicit assumption of a very liberal community. In such communities (say in SF or NYC), I am welcomed pretty warmly. On the other hand, in a bunch of mostly male, middle-aged, Christian tech people in Middle America, I am regarded with a mildly welcoming/neutral attitude at best and open hostility that is leaning-towards-but-not-exactly-racism at the worst.

So this "advantage" you mention is somewhat double-edged depending upon where you are.

That "mildly welcoming/neutral attitude at best and open hostility that is leaning-towards-but-not-exactly-racism" attitude proves my point. That's much better than what folks from Black Africa, many with a much lighter skin tone than you, experience.

Yes, but the initial thing you said was:

> It's almost as if we welcome you with open arms.

Perhaps there is something being lost in cross-cultural language or sarcasm, but I don't think "We might be racist to you, but we're way worse racist to this other group, so you have it good, really" should be expressed as "..as if we welcome you with open arms" and "You have an advantage...". Both of those are traditionally very positive expressions and you are applying them to fairly negative actual events.

I agree that the wording might be a bit inaccurate, but the sentiment in the liberal cities is definitely very welcoming. Personally, having lived in Austin, a liberal city in Texas, I've rarely encountered any explicit racism.

Than an Indian is the ex-governor of Louisiana and the current governor of South Carolina is an Indian woman says a lot. And those are are some of the reddest of states.

My understanding is that even "open hostility that is leaning-towards-but-not-exactly-racism" is better than an Indian person is likely to experience living in China.

> except maybe Canada...

... Norway, Sweden, Australia, New Zealand, Spain...

The US immigration rate (immigrants/year/1000 pop) is significantly lower than all of the above. Norway and Spain are the top two in terms of rate. Australia is 21% foreign-born (excluding Brits and Kiwis), and NZ is not far behind. The US is only 14% (with no exclusions) - not much more than the UK's 12%.

I realise that these are 'just numbers', but the experience stacks up as well. NZ in particular is famous for its very welcoming attitude to migrants - they actually have a problem in that people use the easier-to-get NZ citizenship to 'hop' to Australia, where there's a better economy and hence jobs; thus NZ spends a lot of resources training new citizens in things like English skills, only to have them 'brain drain' away.

Racial discrimination is completely legal in China. Why the hell would anyone want to move to a country where they can legally be discriminated against?

When you are discriminated in a positive way. White males are regarded as superior in the eyes of many Chinese.

The american administration is bad too for foreigners, so I think it can be summarized by how attractive the country is.

You mean how the child of an immigrant is President?

US immigration goes beyond just the President's personal views and desires. The present situation is pretty difficult for many would-be immigrants, even those from middle class backgrounds in stable countries. If they lack a degree or their degree isn't recognized, they can't easily get a work visa (for permanent resident status, not temporary workers). They have to get married, go for the diversity visa program, or become a student (may be their second or third degree for some if they go this route).

This is true. But compare it to other countries: even where immigration is more relaxed, the cultural acceptance of foreign culture is greater in the US than most places. The only place I might prefer to be as a foreigner would be Canada.

His father was not an immigrant, he was born in Queens. And the immigration laws are a much bigger obstacle now than they were even in the 80s.

I was referring to Obama Sr, who was born in Kenya.

He was never an immigrant. He just came on a student visa, studied, then went back to Kenya.

My mistake, I didn't realize that meaning of immigrant. Nonetheless, I think my point stands, perhaps even stronger.

Weird correction.

Mary Anne MacLeod Trump, mother to Donald, was born on the Isle of Lewis in Scotland in 1912, emigrated to the US in 1930, married an American in 1936, naturalized 1942.

Great find; I never would have realized this otherwise. Ironically this is more accurate than my statement about the current president!

You mean how the child of an immigrant is President?

The president's father was never an immigrant. An immigrant is someone who comes to life permanently in a new country. He was a foreign student with a wife in Kenya and eventually returned to Kenya with an American third wife upon the completion of his studies.

Several presidents have been a child of an immigrant: Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, James Buchanan, Chester Arthur, Woodrow Wilson and Herbert Hoover.

Correct; my apologies.

An H1B doesn't have to reapply for a work visa every year, and they eventually get a green card, while green cards are extremely rare in China. Also, you don't have to re-register at the PSB in the states a few times a year, waiting in line just to get a little slip of paper.

It is easy to get a working visa in tech, that's for sure, and if you have a company that jumps through all the hoops for you, it can be relatively painless.

I'm an indian immigrant, this is totally not true. There may be edge cases, but in general, cannot agree with this statement.

what? The american immigration system is pretty awful. H-1B to employer sponsored green card is a really lousy system.

Try immigrating to China.

I'm not familiar with China's system. But let's not pretend a lottery based system, where the only thing that decides whether you can stay in the country or not, is random number generation, like H1-B is great.

China's system is basically just "No, you can't stay". As of 2010 exactly 1,448 living immigrants had managed to become citizens. In contrast, the US naturalizes 700,000 every year.

The country actually has more billionaires than non-Vietnamese refugees.

Right. China is in the business of colonising other countries - not being colonised itself.

A minority in the US could make that same exact argument...

Only true if you're willing to be ignorant about how poor integration is in most of the Asian countries compared to the US.

> you'll always be a foreigner there

This isn't true in the US, if you learn the language.

language != culture

No, but communication plays a huge deal in being able to absorb the culture, as well as share your own.

Very true. Most places in the US are fairly welcoming if you can speak English and communicate. It's even common for xenophobes to cut out an exception for immigrants and minorities they know personally and feel friendly toward.

Also the american culture is very wide spread through media. Watching Hollywood, music, sitcoms, talk shows, stand ups etc. ever since I was 10 yo and able to understand english definitely helps absorbing the culture even from eastern Europe as myself. Visited the US for 2 weeks and really felt as if I was no stranger at all.

we don't care where you're from. I'm not running a little 'who's a citizen tally' in my head.

Minorities are not treated like foreigners or alien.

Yes, and it would be a less strong argument. Being a recent immigrant in the United States is not easy, and feeling integrated into the new country is a challenge. Being a recent immigrant to China is incredibly hard, and feeling integrated is impossible. All arguments could be made on all sides of every issue; that doesn't say much about practical realities.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com