ReMarkable Paper Tablet
blog.getremarkable.com
blog.getremarkable.com
I see no evidence that the team behind this "remarkable" product has ever completed anything of this scale.
Some of the claims are very suspicious. https://liliputing.com/2016/11/remarkable-10-3-inch-writing-...
"reMarkable says the screen has 55ms latency for quick response from pen input"
55ms would be impressive for an LCD. Even the iPad Pro has a latency of 60ms [1]. So a 55ms claim for an E Ink panel? Should raise one's alarm detector.
[1] http://www.anandtech.com/show/9766/the-apple-ipad-pro-review...
I've worked w/ e-ink technology and designed similar hardware before. Here is how they work:
You scan across the matrix, setting the row/column multiplexer to the dots you want and flip the dots between black and white as needed. This flip is a physical process and has an inherent latency. You can't move to the next pixel until you've finished flipping this one.
The flipping process is basically applying a high positive or negative voltage to the tiny plate under the pixel, which causes either the positive or negative side (black or white) of the embedded dot to show. The amount of voltage you apply determines the intensity. If you want crisp edges and accurate shades of gray then the voltage also depends on manufacturing characteristics of that specific panel. E-Ink actually gives you a waveform for each panel they hip, and that waveform is also temperature dependant -- because the liquid the dots are suspended in changes viscosity based on temp.
So you can do a bit of simple calculation and determine the voltage to go from say 25% gray to 55% gray. This is faster because normally you'd go to either black or white and then to your target shade. This is why you see that screen "flashing" when there is a full page change.
To bring it all back... if you only need to update a small region, say the area around the tip of the pixel, you can do so relatively quickly -- compared to the whole screen -- hence their 55ms claim.
Personally, I noticed a fair bit of latency in their video.
As an experiment for a previous project we rolled our own FPGA based driver and were able to get small region update down to about 20ms.
That is very impressive. 20ms latency from the time a pen hits the display to the point that a pixel is drawn on an EPD is twice as fast as an iPad Pro is able to do it on an LCD! Any links to your project?
the high latency is one of the reasons normal tablets suck for writing and sketching.
What's the "burned" part about? I'm reviewing their updates and everything seems normal.
Currently they are struggling with certified for iphone.
> After a few trials I measured an approximate latency for the iPad Pro of roughly 49ms or 3 frames of delay
From your linked article, the iPad is faster than you say. This is also in the Photoshop Sketch app. It's faster in other apps.
> To give an idea for how much the application has an effect on latency, the Apple Notes app has roughly 38 ms or around 2 frames of latency from when the stylus tip passes over one point to when the inking reaches the same point.
and the EPD is designed by e ink based on our requirements, e. g. the size and high DPI.
Most companies making EPD products use the base OS provided by their SoC vendor. Based on your spec which says 1GHz ARM A9 , I'm guessing you're using the NXP (formerly Freescale, now Qualcomm) i.mx6 SoloLite since that's the only 1GHz ARM A9 with an EPDC controller on the market. Freescale gives you a Linux EPD and an Android EPD Linux BSP, both of which use the same epdc driver with pretty much the same latency which is definitely pretty high, much higher than 55ms for sure.
> EPD is designed by e ink based on our requirements, e. g. the size and high DPI
Are you claiming that E Ink manufactured a custom 10.3" panel just for you?
And there are actually several drivers for the EPDC available. Two from freescale for the imx6 and imx7 (though there are some other improvements in the _v2, apart from imx7 support). There's also another one written by lab126, but I'm not sure if they actually use it. there's also some minor variations in the drivers in the different kernel branches and trees from NXP. And then you have the u-boot drivers. And I think there might be one in the bare metal SDK, but I haven't looked. And then you have the 5bit waveform support, which is a whole other story (with iffy GPL implications for some vendors I won't name).
And the display was designed based on our requirements, but we don't have any kind of exclusivity on it. there's already other devices coming out with it (you can find them if you google the specs, especially the awkward resolution we got thanks to the limits of the technology and our DPI requirement).
Your website only says: "Processor 1 GHz ARM A9 CPU"
> Two from freescale for the imx6 and imx7
Ok, but you are using imx6.
> There's also another one written by lab126
Nope. That's the same driver from Freescale. You can download the kindle source to verify. https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...
> then you have the u-boot drivers.
u-boot just draws a splash screen.
> you have the 5bit waveform support, which is a whole other story (with iffy GPL implications for some vendors I won't name).
I don't understand what you're trying to communicate. Why would a EPD waveform have any GPL implications? An EPD waveform is not software, it is a set of timing values and that's it.
> the display was designed based on our requirements
I'm having difficulty understanding what that means. It sounded like you were saying E Ink designed a panel for you, but maybe what you're saying is just that E Ink had a panel that met your requirements.
as for the waveforms, I'm talking about support for the REAGL (sic) waveforms. grep for it in the linux source in the tarballs you linked to.
and e ink did not have a panel that met our requirements, and designed a new one after we talked with them.
edit; just to be clear, we don't use the lab126 driver, it was just an example of there being more drivers for the imx6 generation epdc.
"Your thoughts, whether they’re words or sketches, are instantly synced to reMarkable’s cloud service"
Imagine for a company only five years back to literally say that your thoughts are sent to their server. I welcome any product that understand we need less distractions and less help from so-called AI, but there are many reasons to be cautious about this one (preorder, latency claim and lack of technical details being some of them).
EDIT: After looking a bit more around, their technical claims does seem credible. Their CTO is/was even a developer at KDE, so let's hope they also will support open standards and personal servers. If so then it's literally the device I've always been dreaming of!
another reason is that we can't share too much about what we're working on in case some journalist picks up some wording as promising some feature we can't deliver on. a lot of the stuff we're working on is stuff we don't know if we can deliver in time, in a polished enough form. so what we're talking about is what we have already solved, and which we believe is going to sell the device best to the people we target.
lastly, Certain Companies that have tried to do this for years are really, really interested in how we have solved the latency problem, and we don't want to help them.
EDIT:
> Their CTO is/was even a developer at KDE
is, thank you very much (latest commit was to kio on saturday). even if I don't have as much time for KDE stuff as I used to for obvious reasons.
Now I see you're also a developer at KDE which certainly gives credibility to your statements! But on the same note I truly hope the information from the device will be encrypted on your server, and that an opt-out of this sync will be possible. And if there will be support for Owncloud or the like, you've literally made my dream device!
I truly understand and support that you don't promise stuff that aren't really made yet, and I really hope the privacy concerns will be taken as serious as they are.
well, I personally have basically stopped contributing to crowdfunding campaigns, I've been burnt a lot. and this is also why we haven't gone public earlier, even when we've been working on this for years.
> I truly understand and support that you don't promise stuff that aren't really made yet, and I really hope the privacy concerns will be taken as serious as they are.
well, privacy is very important to me personally (I even have a couple of commits in owncloud), and we've been discussing several ways to protect the privacy. but until we know which way we do it we can't promise anything, even just speculating will lead to people assuming and get angry if we go for something else.
Just to give you a little feedback, I don't expect any reply for now:
- if the cloud sync can not be disabled I'll just nuke the packets at the router, but I suspect the option will be there.
- I want the SDK (mentioned as possible in your FAQ), unofficial-void-your-warranty all the way to the moon if you want, to have a programmable scientific calculator (maybe with Computer Algebra System functionality if I find the time) on this device. Having to build a complete firmware image in my laptop (Linux) and flashing it just to install my application is acceptable, simply uploading the file as if it was a PDF is better.
these uncertainties is why we hired Dragon Innovation early on. they're very, very good at this and has a very good track record when it comes to hardware startups (e. g. pebble and makerbot).
> really interested in how we have solved the latency problem, and we don't want to help them.
But just before that, you also wrote ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13072333 ):
> One of the issues I personally want to solve is the lack of a hackable e-paper device.
So which is it? You want to make a hackable (I interpret that to mean free and open source) e-paper device where you let everyone see how you solved the latency problem? OR do you want to make a closed source thing where only you and you alone have this magical device that has the lowest latency E Ink panel by a factor of 2?
as for hackable device; we don't intend to release the magic sauce that makes the latency goes down. what I meant with hackable is that I've wanted an e-paper device which I could run my own code on, without having to look for security holes in the software running on it.
but again; we can't promise anything at this point wrt. hackability; we have limited time and resources, and our focus is on making the device as good as possible. our focus is not on making an open source device, we're not going to release the gerber files. :-)
Ok.
> what I meant with hackable is that I've wanted an e-paper device which I could run my own code on, without having to look for security holes in the software running on it.
If your software is closed source, then I don't understand how anyone other than you effectively (or practically) would be able to solve or fix any security holes.
> we're not going to release the gerber files
You're setting up a strawman there. I was not asking for your hardware design or even mentioning it in anyway. I was pointing out that you are contradicting yourself when you say your product is hackable to software developers and then 30s later say that there will be "magic sauce" in software that will be closed.
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant that for pretty much all current e-paper devices you aren't able to get access to run your own code unless you find a security hole that you can exploit to gain access.
And sorry about the strawman, it wasn't intended that way. I think the rest of the comment before that answers your original question.
Ok. That helps clarify things.
But on your website, you do not state that your device will permit flashing "your own code". Your website somewhat implies the opposite, it says:
" DO YOU PROVIDE THE REMARKABLE WITH A SDK FOR CUSTOM DEVELOPMENT? The reMarkable will not initially ship with an officially supported SDK. We might however release an unsupported SDK for best developers. "
Could you clarify what "might" and "best developers" means? In multiple comments, you somewhat imply capabilities and features of the product with terms like "hackable" and "run your own code". Perhaps you could put an explicit statement on your website clarifying your position to match your comments.
I'm not trying to imply anything, but what I personally want and what we can do are two different things. I'm sorry if I've been sloppy in my comments here, the last days have been pretty hectic.
There's some tech specs on the site (getremarkable.com)
Good luck
Save the notes to local storage and let me transfer them to a computer locally.
This may be important for enterprise users who want to keep propriety information on in-house servers.
Now, if they offered actually-secure client-side encryption (with no backdoors or sidechannels to strip said encryption, unlike e.g. Mozilla do with their accounts), then I might still be interested, but I'd still rather run it on my own hosts.
These two factors (all secrecy depending on your password and their ability to get your password) mean if you can remember your password, then Mozilla can brute-force your password, and if you have a strong password (e.g. 7HlipLbGliwUmUdWHKeq4p), then Mozilla can — or can be compelled to — serve you targeted JavaScript and steal it.
Well, now or five years ago, no one had the mind reading technology to say that, literally.
However, it's worth noting that Chromebooks were introduced five and a half years ago, so for a company introducing a device line to say that your work would be synced that way 5 years ago isn't something you have to work hard to imagine, if you were paying any attention at the time.
- The ability to use it as a drawing tablet for another computer. It's already a perfectly good large touch-sensitive surface meant for drawing, why should I need to buy a second one for Illustrator?
- ssh, and some way to connect an external keyboard. E-paper is excellent for a terminal, and this is big enough to be useful.
- Some way to use purely as a display, whether by some plug or by X-server broadcasting via SSH or some form of screen-sharing client. Most non-video uses of a computer (if color is not crucial) work just fine on e-paper.
- The ability to turn off cloud-sync. Sorry, but I'm not sending you everything I write. For some people that might even go deeper than a personal choice (NDAs, if they work on anything proprietary, depending on how they're phrased).
So, basically, the ability to use it for its components and not just the singular agglomeration of them that you envision. I put that above even the ability to write your own software for it.
In other words, if ReMarkable has the following, I would have already pre-ordered, even if it's got nothing else:
- an e-paper touch display
- plus Wi-Fi, USB, HDMI, etc.
- the ability to disable automatic cloud sync
- with four built-in programs:
-- ssh
-- drivers-for-use-as-drawing-tablet
-- VNC client
-- The reader/drawing program demonstrated in the video, for use alone
That said, and it might be nitpicky of me, but the choice of micro-USB for charging is a real annoyance. This is a premium device at a premium price point which I'm expecting to keep for many years. USB-C for portable devices is something that I'm considering a must-have at this point. Will probably wait for the first hardware revision.
I'll be interested in this when the latency and DPI can keep up with the pace of natural handwriting.
From FAQ > own special operating system Codex / We might however release an unsupported SDK for best developers
That's disappointing. I assume "best developers" means corporates. I'd have hoped for a fully open SDK as you're not able to use anything from Android etc. There's probably no end of utilities solo coders would piece together. I'd probably be looking at whether I could make a few apps myself.
I'm a little disappointed at no lighting, it's made a big difference to my eReader. No doubt LEDs would add much to cost.
but again; we can't even promise that we have the time and resources to package up a usable toolchain for third-parties.
edit; also, it is a device connected to the internet. not supporting updating the firmware would be extremely irresponsible from a security perspective.
Also, there's definitely a balance to be struck between lack of distraction and lack of features. It would be a waste for this not to have an epub reader, for example. But while I'd really appreciate having email on it, that's starting to get into distraction territory.
edit; really besides the point, but saw your nick. our internal name for the prototype (in u-boot and the kernel) is zero-gravitas.
and you can find pictures of us. one of the reasons I've been skeptical about the noteslate is because I couldn't really find out who was making it.
but seeing is believing, especially with this product, videos doesn't do it justice imho. so we need some way of getting it into the hands of people, probably some kind of ambassadors that have some reach and a lot of integrity. but this has to wait until our ODM finishes the next batches of prototypes, so we actually have devices that we can send out.
https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-DPTS1/?PID=I:digitalpa...
This is a pro device, costs almost $1000. I don't own one but a friend does... it's very magical looking, and feels nice for the 2 minutes I used it.
Think they're down to about $700 now. Any on ebay and Amazon are from Japan with no English!!
Looked at these a few times hoping they were going on wider release. With Sony out of eBooks, and selling off Vaio, doesn't look promising for a replacement.
It sucks that you can buy a large tablet for $50 but epaper is so expensive.
- I know you're not committing to certain things at this time, but can you confirm yet that a subscription fee will NOT be required for full usage? Ie. If I want to store locally or on Dropbox or Google Drive would something like that be possible? I hesitate to preorder without knowing how your full pricing model might be structured.
- Is the stylus unique to the device, or will any old stylus work? Also, will it need to be charged separately?
- Will there be the possibility of low frame rate animations? I could see that being super useful for diagrams.
- Can you share any insights into the current state of eInk technology with regards to color displays? Is it looking like something that might be commercially viable in the next 5 years? 10?
- As you acknowledge, this tech will likely be copied pretty quickly. How do you build a business moat around that?
Awesome stuff and excited to see how this turns out.
"Better thinking" might be an overstatement, but it is quite a hassle to doodle on a computer, and I do find that I think slightly differently while handwriting.
I use paper to sketch out thoughts and draw diagrams, and I don't want unlimited papers. 5 pages a day is enough for me. I wish I could say I read books - I don't. So I only have to manage papers on which I write things and refer to them quickly whenever possible. It works fine, but if someone has tips to help, please share. Thanks.
If notes, and highlighting work as advertised, will printed books have anything to offer other than aesthetic value?
The movies don't seem to do a good job of demonstrating the advertised pressure and tilt sensitivity levels; I didn't seem to notice any variation in line width.
It would be awesome if you could make Stylus Labs Write (http://www.styluslabs.com/) work on your device — or at least steal the ideas (esp. text moving) for your writing app.
Will hold out until actual products are given to the public, I've seen several pitches for this that haven't materialized. Best of luck though, I will be waiting.
it's probably the most requested feature, but it's a really, really hard problem.
but please send me a message at martin.sandsmark@remarkable.no if anyone have any tips about solutions to this (we're talking with a couple of vendors, but we might have missed some).
Regarding that I do have a 'tip' for you. There is no need for an intermediate textual representation. If a sequence of pen strokes is what you have recorded, then a sequence of pen strokes is what you should search by.
For further tips (or an algorithm) I have to charge :)
Compare https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKmfyThA9Sg to https://youtu.be/34I27KPZM6g?t=52
https://webdocs.cs.ualberta.ca/~wfb/publications/C-2014-GI-L...
so we solved our goal, but it's always possible to get better.
I'm hoping to see more and more e-ink offerings. For myself, I would like a 50" curved e-ink monitor for work, black and white is fine. I know e-ink has terrible refresh rates, but I'm working with code and consoles 90% of the time. I could put web browsers and other stuff on another monitor.
Seriously, a small VR system that's just an SSH client would be a pretty massive improvement on my life.
Maybe one could adapt cheap FPV glasses to take a smartphone instead, they don't "waste" pixels on stereo as VR setups do.
An 16'' uncurved 20kg e-ink monitor with 100ms latency to work outside and I give you my car.
1) Is the screen latency numbers applicable to full-page updates also? I.e. scrolling a page of text.
2) How decent is the performance when dealing with large PDFs?
3) Is the digitizer pressure sensitive? Does it only work with a stylus? If not, how good is palm rejection?
and the digitizer is an EMR digitizer, completely separate from the touch layer. so we don't have to worry about palm rejection.
edit; you can see the speed of the zoom in the video, which also needs to re-render the page at a different scale. so that should give you an idea about the speed of page flipping.
Most of the time I find myself switching between my pencil/notebook and google docs. The feel of the pencil on the notebook, the friction, the feeling of pressing on the notebook is a matter of satisfaction which we cannot find on tablets. On the other hand, the flexibility of digital stuff is a must.
With iPhone 7, I am satisfied with the haptic feeling of pressing a button. A similar achievement on a surface would be revolutionary.
If you have an iPad Pro and an Apple Pencil, I recently started using Nebo (by MyScript) and it is working well for me. Handwriting, multiple notebooks, etc. You must have an Apple Pencil to use the app.
For now, none of this will replace my paper, but I am hopeful someday.
ReMarkable Team - I'd love to share how I use paper everyday in hopes some of my specifics make it into your product :-)
Thinking about the iPhone briefly, I think the Steve Jobs formula is to wait until the device can be less than an order of magnitude more expensive, only half as convenient, and about as reliable as the thing it's displacing. I'm also wondering if Microsoft did actually make the right long term decision with regards to its Surface line of hardware.
Which decision would that be?
If anyone feels like supporting this project, but doesn't think they'd actually use such a device, let me know, I'd happily accept one to test / use / etc.
a) does it have a backlight
b) can I sync it with my own server instead of some 3rd party cloud service?
i also don't know how adding a fourth device simplifies life at all.
Who is the target market for a product like this?
If it feels sufficiently paper-y to write on and PDF exporting is seamless-y and with at least a rudimentary tagging function, I'd probably buy one.