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Comment by kriro | Hacker News Reader

Regarding salary. I think 45-50k Euro is a pretty decent entry level salary in Germany if you're coming out of university (debt free) depending on the region. That may look shocking compared to the SV numbers but you can live a good life off 50k and a lot of the stuff will be taken care of (education of your children, healthcare) which reduces the stress level quite a bit.

If you want to start a company, you'll face some social issues (failure is considered failure) but the infrastructure is decent enough. The social issues have changed a lot in recent years though. Anecdotally I feel like recruiting good devs right out of universities is a lot easier if you're a typical startup because many of the good developers will have fought the standard curriculum of the java-bot and be rather happy to work in a more agile setting (but still want to stay in their home country).

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Healthcare is absolutely taken care of for American six-figure tech workers. My premium is $2.50/mo and all my care is free or for a nominal fee, like $20. US healthcare is systemically broken, but not for people who command high wages.

Having kids in college is at least 30 years out. Knowing that an expense 30 years away will be taken care of is better than the alternative, but would do nothing for my stress level in the next ~20.

I don't buy that either of these things make any actual difference for an early-career programmer.

Probably the most important thing is rent. I suspect most European cities can offer a 1-bedroom apartment within 30 minutes of work by foot/public transit for a much lower proportion of a developer's salary than SF can, even when developer salaries are much lower. And in places not SF, $50k USD is not particularly low for a developer salary.

> Having kids in college is at least 30 years out

It takes 18 years for kids to grow up and go to college right? Do you mean that you know you won't have kids for at least another 12 years?

Well, if theyre ~20 right now, and don't want to have kids until their 30s, that sounds about right

Pretty much.

Our firm is actively not in Silicon Valley (or CA at all). And as such, we don't offer six figure starting salaries. And that does hurt us when it comes to getting new grads as they say "I can go work for Google and get paid X. Or I can work for you and get a fraction of that"

But the smart ones realize that cost of living is a LOT cheaper out here and that fraction goes a lot farther. I have colleagues who went the SV-industry route and one weekend over beers we realized I had saved more per year AND had far more "dicking around" money than they did. And I live by myself (no SO not by choice, but no flatmates is) rather than having three flatmates. Their salaries are still a fair amount higher than mine, but my cost of living is a tiny fraction of theirs.

Peace of mind with healthcare isn't so much about one-off costs when you catch a nasty flu. What happens if you're unable to work for months/years due to a health issue? Will you be able to pay your expensive rent and other expenses without worries?

Also you're a bit naive if you think raising kids will cost you only once they go to college. If you compare direct (daycare, preschool) and indirect (like moving to a good neighborhood) costs in the Bay area vs. a big European city, the difference is easily 5 figures year. And then there are things like parental leave.

But of course, as a 20-something you might not need these things.

Then those (like rent, as I mentioned) are the much more compelling arguments.

If I'm unable to work for months, I'll have to draw down my emergency fund (probably move somewhere cheap to slow the burn rate). If in Europe I don't have to save for this, and can freely spend all of my paycheck, then that's a huge benefit. Ditto with retirement, which takes ~15% off the top of American salaries (unless you are irresponsible or in crisis so not saving for it).

Preschool is a valid point; moving to a good neighborhood is captured in rent.

I'm just saying healthcare and education aren't the interesting arguments. Housing costs and socialized savings plans are.

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