Hacker News Reader

Comment by bmy78 | Hacker News Reader

It's not "tricking", unless you're letting your toddler dictate whether you should leave the house. Toddlers don't have a choice over that; instead, you're giving the toddler a choice appropriate to their level. That helps build their cognitive abilities and takes the focus away from whether they want to leave the house (a choice they shouldn't make), to whether they want the sweater or coat (a choice reasonable for them).

View on HN

You're using a cognitive advantage to distract them from expressing displeasure about something they reasonably don't like. Just because the toddler doesn't have a say over whether you're leaving the house doesn't mean you're not tricking him.

If two people are dating, the boyfriend is well within his rights to unilaterally break off the relationship. But if he broached the issue with his girlfriend by saying "Would you rather be just friends or simply not see each other any more?" in order to distract her from the breakup, she would rightfully be resentful. (That example is extreme to illustrate the point, but the idea is the same.)

It's clearly not a fair comparison. At some point you need to introduce an age of determination or at least a grade to have a reasonable conversation about the ethics of parenting. Parents are required to do all sorts of things in their kids' best interest that wouldn't otherwise be reasonable / appropriate.

The point of the example was not that it was a perfect analogy, it was merely to rebut the idea that a parent's prerogative to choose destination doesn't mean there's no transgression.

I already addressed the child's-interest defense in another comment. Yes, there are of course cases where parents transgressions may be justified (and required) in order to help the child, but we shouldn't pretend there is no transgression, in particular because we should always try to secure the good outcome for the child without the transgression.

Are you suggesting 4-year-old children are emotionally mature enough to properly express their displeasure with something in a productive manner? Maybe some are, but others are very hair triggered with their emotions and interpret not getting their way as if they were being murdered. Perhaps working around these fatal emotion exceptions is better than running into them every day, at least until the child's brain has had time for a few major revisions.

In your second paragraph, are you suggesting there is no such thing as an amicable breakup? One where exes can still be friends? The "I don't have romantic feelings for you, but would like to remain friends" tactic is quite popular. Obviously the recipient of that message will interpret it in a variety of ways depending on their investment in the relationship. If the person has a negative reaction to it, they likely wouldn't have responded any better to "I am leaving you, goodbye" either.

> Perhaps working around these fatal emotion exceptions is better than running into them every day, at least until the child's brain has had time for a few major revisions.

Perhaps. Parenting is complicated. But we shouldn't pretend it's not a trick, and that we aren't doing something the child may rightfully resent.

> In your second paragraph, are you suggesting...

No.

> If the person has a negative reaction to it, they likely wouldn't have responded any better to "I am leaving you, goodbye" either.

The point of being honest is not necessarily because it secures the best response.

If the goal of the parent is "get child to grandmas, so I can go to work to continue to take care of this child", while the child's goal is "I want to continue to watch cartoons in this very spot and not move, and I'll have a tantrum if I am told to move due to poor impulse/emotional controls in my under-developed brain, unless I am 'tricked'", then who's goals are more important? If the child resents such a "trick" later in life, then the child is still showing traits of emotional immaturity, and a lack of understanding on how the world operates.

Also don't put honesty on too high a pedestal. Being honest about every single thing can have very damaging effects and negative consequences. Having no social tact so you can ride an honesty high horse is not necessarily superior to little white lies and/or trickery.

You are attributing large sweeping claims to me that I'm not making.

To be honest, I am actually not.

  > If the goal of the parent is "get child to grandmas"
  > while the child's goal is "I want to continue to watch cartoons"
  > who's goals are more important?

At what point/age is it OK to control someone, and when/why does that stop?

As an adult, if I want to spend the day on the sofa watching cartoons, who has the right to stop me, and drag me off somewhere else?

> At what point/age is it OK to control someone, and when/why does that stop?

When they have not established an ability to control their life or take care of themselves? See how long the infant or toddler lasts without supervision. See the teenager make the best choices for their lives without the ability to earn a living(although technically I moved out at 17).

When they can afford their own self determination as defined by the society they live in?

Parental control is more of a gradient that should ease as the child gets closer to adulthood. The goal of the parent should be to make a self-sufficient independent individual. That's not always their goal though.

>As an adult, if I want to spend the day on the sofa watching cartoons, who has the right to stop me, and drag me off somewhere else?

Your landlord, mortgage company, local tax auditor would have the legal right to evict you if you failed to make good on earlier promises to pay rent, mortgage, taxes. If you're living with someone else who is paying for your ability to watch cartoons then they could probably kick you out whenever they felt like it.

> The "I don't have romantic feelings for you, but would like to remain friends" tactic is quite popular

Has this ever, in the history of mankind, actually worked?

In my experience it works very well. I've had people say that to me, and I've said that to other people, and I'm relatively happy on both ends of it. In fact, I'm currently in a very healthy relationship with someone who I've said that to several years ago. So it "works" however you want to measure it. The trick is not to be 15 years old.

The assumption implicit in your argument is that the relationship is equal (as in the case of a boyfriend/girlfriend). I'm not sure that same assumption holds for a parent and a child, as much as the media tells you otherwise.

The point of the example was merely to rebut the idea that a parent's prerogative to choose destination doesn't mean there's no transgression. Finding some way that it differs from the parent-child relationship isn't relevant unless you explain why the asymmetry would imply there was no transgression.

Children learn their own forms of manipulative behavior at an early age(e.g. cry to get attention or what you want), but with less logical understanding of their own wants/needs. Put children on the same level, and hold the child to the same moral standard you're trying to hold parents to and they fail completely at it. It's not a matter of the parent manipulating the innocent child, but rather the parent diverting around the child's own manipulative behaviors. Perhaps no one should be manipulative ever, but go ahead and try explaining that to someone with the cognitive and emotional maturity of a 4 year old.

In an adult-adult relationship, the two parties should be equals, with similar cognitive and emotional maturity. They should treat each other as such. This isn't always the case. Even loving seemingly healthy relationships may involve some form of manipulative behavior on both sides.

Transgressions occur all the time, in all relationships, you have you to use judgement to figure out which ones get a pass, and which ones don't.

  > the boyfriend is well within his rights to unilaterally break off the relationship.
  > But if he broached the issue with his girlfriend by saying
  > "Would you rather be just friends or simply not see each other any more?"
  > in order to distract her from the breakup, she would rightfully be resentful.

That's a tricky one, because, as you say, he can unilaterally break off the relationship. By providing options going forward, most people would see that as looking for the most positive way to move on. Who would resent that?

Unless he deliberately did that to distract from the breakup…but even then, it doesn't exactly seem all that negative. Having made the decision to break off the relationship, providing options to deal with that and offer positive ways forward doesn't seem all that bad.

For me, I'm struggling to see how the example fits. Sure, she may be upset at the breakup of the relationship, but providing options for responding to that seems more positive than negative.

I don't disagree with the principle, but the example: a relationship is based on mutual consent, and withdrawal of that consent isn't a trick or unacceptable.

You are comparing a 4 yo to an 18(?) yo.

Should a 4 yo be allowed to live alone? Drive a car? Date?

It is about choice and responsibillity on a suitable level for the maturity of the child.

And a parent-child relationship is very different from an adult-adult relationship either way.

Your commen makes absolutely no sense.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com