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Comment by krisroadruck | Hacker News Reader

Probably not a popular opinion, but maybe someone who is mentally unbalanced enough to commit suicide over a job is the problem, not the company itself. In a company as large as amazon you are going to have the full gamut of the human spectrum working for you. It IS possible that person who is a bad employee, and person who would commit suicide at work can occupy the same body.

Franky, this linked letter shares a lot of that same bizarreness. He calls the person who jumped off the roof brave and said he wish he had the courage to do that. If you hate your job, wouldn't the courageous thing be to go get a different job? If you are a good employee then getting another job shouldn't be that difficult. If you aren't a good employee then it is hardly the company's fault.

I'm not saying that amazon is not potentially a shitty place to work at. But this whole employee attempts to commit suicide, that'll show em attitude is just plain wrong headed.

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I kind of was with you until If you aren't a good employee then it is hardly the company's fault.

The company's responsibility is not to push "bad" employees to commit suicide; it's to help them improve, or, if that's too difficult or there simply isn't a good fit, to part with them in the best of terms.

The question here isn't about the performance of Amazon's employees; it's whether bullying is regarded as an acceptable managing practice.

bit of clarification, I was attempting to say its not the companies fault if you are not a good employee and thus have trouble securing new employment. I was not saying that the company should use the fact that you are a bad employee to push you towards suicide or whatever. I'm not entirely sure how it came off that way.

But pushing this person to suicide is actually what they did!

My suspicion is that the reason they didn't notice a mental stability problem is because they probably have hundreds of people going through this at any one time. So, change your management style, or face the wrath of (at least some of) society when they read about this stuff.

As a customer I love Amazon, but the more I read about them I would gladly take a hit in the convenience department to take them down several pegs and teach them and Mr. Bezos a lesson.

Yeah, if a company is going to use the "we're a family" line to make employees spend extra time, then the least they could do is look out for their employee's mental and emotional health.

> maybe someone who is mentally unbalanced enough to commit suicide over a job is the problem

I've perhaps read too much dark science fiction, but I am certain I could construct a functional job environment that would cause anyone to attempt suicide, especially given years.

Are there people who have mental health problems? Absolutely. Does wanting to commit suicide because your job is a mentally caustic environment mean you had pre-existing mental health problems? Absolutely not.

PS: If you're in that situation, please leave your job. If your company won't transfer you to a new role, find a new company.

Your expectations are correct. This is just a horribly, inhumane comment on every level. It's the equivalent to telling someone suffering from relationship abuse "Just get a new spouse!"

It's the equivalent to telling someone suffering from relationship abuse "Just get a new spouse!"

What's wrong with telling the abused to exit their current situation as quickly as possible?

> What's wrong with telling the abused to exit their current situation as quickly as possible?

It's VERY WRONG to attempt to end one's life in order to exit the toxic work/relationship/marriage, like the unnamed Amazon employee did.

Exiting the current situation would mean separation/divorce, not ending one's life.

My comment was regarding to the ununamed male employee who attempted suicide.

Then you probably replied to the wrong comment, as my question had nothing to do with what you're on about.

I probably did and getting massively down voted as a result. But I can't delete it either once someone commented on it.

It's not the "get a new spouse" part. It's the "Just" part.

Let's assume you're a programmer. Ever get annoyed when someone comes along while you're dealing with a problem and goes, "Why don't you just..." without any acknowledgement of the many complexities? And that if you could "just" do this or that, you fucking would have already?

Yeah, it's like that.

That would never annoy me, in fact I supremely enjoy conversing solutions about hard problems where multiple solutions may exist.

It's the "Just" part.

Ah, "it's not always that simple". Fair enough, thanks.

(And two down votes already for asking an honest question? Stay classy, HN.)

oh wow +1 for dev whispering skills

Because problems/issues of this scale are not fixed with band-aid type solutions, regardless of who is more at fault.

Except, in some situations, one party holds 100% of the blame.

Doesn't mean its easily fixed.

I can tell you two reasons why it's not always the best choice.

1. They're not currently employed which means they would enter into poverty with no exit strategy for that.

2. They have children which means without relatives on both sides of the relationship willing to help with the transition to separation (and possibly divorce if they're married) it's going to be hard to do this. It also means going into poverty in some cases whether or not the person has a job since caring for the material needs of children is an added burden. And if the spouse was also abusing them that means leaving them in their care isn't an option either.

Simply put, it's not easy when it comes to leaving one bad situation. Whether it's an abusive employer or an abusive spouse.

No, it's not. You need to have an internal locus of control, or life is just not going to treat you well in any aspect.

If you don't truly believe that you can affect your external circumstances by changing your actions, you'll be constantly wondering why crappy things happen to you and looking for external saviours. If you do believe you can change your life, you'll start doing it, and your life is more likely to get better.

Some people chose to live their life more humbly, accepting the cup that was given to them, rather than constantly chase this constant state of utopia, and indeed I can empathize with that. I have heard the stories of many women (unfortunately not so many men, but I am sure they are out there), my mom being one of them, who stay in undesirable circumstances because they pity the other person, and they think that showing them grace and love will help them. They feel if they leave, the selfish act is now on them for leaving them out to dry, because who else is going to love them? Sometimes this is the case and things turn out better, but sometimes it isn't, and the hard part is convincing that other person that they are being taken advantage of, this humbleness and gentleness is being taken advantage of.

Sometimes people take the same approach to their jobs, their managers, all other relationships. If they leave, who else will do this job? Then the manager will lose his job, whatever else runs through their minds.

Life is never binary.

> Some people chose to live their life more humbly

Then let them. Don't let them complain about what they're going through incessantly.

Sure, everybody complains about their job/relationships once in a while, but when that's all you talk/complain about and you get a martyr complex (I have to do this because nobody else will) that's when you remind them that this too is a choice they made.

Tell someone to "just make a choice" when they work paycheck to paycheck.

Tell someone to "just make a choice" when if they leave their abusive relationship, their children will be devistated and they will lose their health insurance. What will you tell them? "Just go get a job with health insurance!"? I hope not.

Tell someone "just make a choice" when they have convinced themselves that leaving would be quitting, and it would go against their very fabric of who they self-identify with to do so.

So easy to make choices like you describe in hindsight, and when you have ample fallback options. But when you don't it requires great courage and an amazing support system, as well as emotional stability. Most people sadly don't have that, and to sit here and say "well it's a choice you made!" is beyond heartless. If you see someone suffering in a scenario where to you it may seem like "Well stupid! Just make a chose to leave" that is a good sign that you are probably wrong, and don't understand the situation at all. We are human beings, not emotionless robots. Our brains don't go (if desireableSituation !== 1) { leave() }

I hope you never have to be in these shoes.

> Tell someone to "just make a choice" when they work paycheck to paycheck.

Wow, way to miss the point entirely. They are making a choice. Doing something they hate to remain getting paid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness

Once you start thinking that you have no choice, that life is against you, it becomes self perpetuating. You don't tell people "just make a choice" you make it very clear that they're already making the choice. They're the ones with agency.

Sure their choices have consequences, but all choices do. Ultimately they're in charge of their destiny, unless of course they're slaves and prisoners. No matter what you think/say about Amazon, if you're a software dev at Amazon, you are nowhere near a slave or prisoner.

If you think you have no control over your destiny, you're destined to get stuck in the same rut and experience the same mistakes and pitfalls over and over again.

You're trying to assign logic to a situation where there isn't any.

The person was pre-disposed to jumping, you say. Why would they think it's reasonable to consider alternatives? People can be very single-minded.

For low-skill workers, a job with shit pay can be all they have. It's quite common to think "I must do well here cause I can't get another job. I'm not $random_bs_reason_they_cant_see_through."

Add on the stress of an environment like Amazon, which is pushing people for no reason other than generating money (the faster Amazon is the more people think Amazon is magical, the more they spend at Amazon).

The implosion of our system will be due to this ridiculous fetish with fiscal success. It's become the only marker that matters. We care so little for each other, thinking someone else is taking care of people with mental illness, not realizing the system that does that is often too expensive or too broke to do anything. BUT HEY THE STOCK IS UP AND 20 COMPANIES WERE DECLARED UNICORNS!

We're reaching the point where it's things like this that will begin to crack that facade. This is an important opening for useful conversation. But we'll probably just debate JS frameworks, instead of the reality that our social safety is a complete joke. Objectivism or gtfo!

Upvote/downvote. Doesn't matter. This is a throwaway. I don't have any need for imaginary internet points.

>Upvote/downvote. Doesn't matter. This is a throwaway. I don't have any need for imaginary internet points.

Yet it mattered enough for you to write the last line.

What mattered was letting people know their efforts will be in vain.

I'm a believer in emotionally honest communication. That's what mattered by writing it.

That's different than looking for upvotes/downvotes.

But sure, the first answer you landed on was probably right. Cause you're smart.

> I don't have any need for imaginary internet points.

Haha, this is so rich, because you seem to care enough to make a throwaway and not link it to your real account.

I don't have a "real account". Not caring about accumulating points and not caring to be involved in a discussion at all are separate ideas. I have no obligation to link my identity to the data collection schemes. I use multiple VPN services to, FWIW :)

That maybe could have been implied by use of a throwaway and explicitly stating disinterest in points. I'd rather focus on the ideas and conversations. Upvote/downvote leads to watered down groupthink. "I'm too lazy to think up something, so I'll just quickly upvote/retweet what sounds closest to what I'm thinking."

The point of the sentence was to let people who are going to reach for it know that no long term status will be valued by either choice. It's only going to improve visibility in this conversation and cease being valuable after. Since some of these things matter to people, I'm up front about it.

Logging out now! Never to post with this name from this IP again!

I expect to get downvote blasted into oblivion

From the site guidelines:

Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downvote you or announce that you expect to get downvoted.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Sorry about that, edited to comply with the rules.

I expect to get downvote blasted into oblivion, but maybe someone who is mentally unbalanced enough to commit suicide over a job is the problem, not the company itself.

Down voting your comment would disappoint me very much (and as of this writing, it's the top comment). IMO, at worst Amazon is part of a much larger picture. And as you imply, out of X number of people, Y will hurl themselves off a building. Remember the FoxConn hoo-ha a few years back? Yeah, I sat down and compared the reported suicide rates of 400K FoxConn employees versus China in general (I wasn't the only one, as I recall). Turns out, FoxConn folk must be pretty damned happy, actually, as their suicide rate was lower than the general population of China.

No, to place blame on Amazon is to ignore the problem. I've worked at far shittier places than Amazon is reported to be, and I didn't take my own life. More was at play than just where this person worked. If we need do anything, we need identify that "more" and fix that.

> at worst Amazon is part of a much larger picture.

I think this is the crux of the issue with our industry. It is not unique to Amazon, it just so happens they have had a few vocal employees.

Lower level employees at companies like this tend to get deridden for speaking about their situation and told to "just get a new job / move to a new city". This thread, that Yelp girl, and so on. Disapproval of your circumstances or employment situation have to be expressed in just the right tone and wording to be considered valid by some.

You think this person would have committed suicide wherever they worked, and their experience at Amazon was in no way different than it would have been at any other company? Do you think Amazon is no different than other companies? Is it possible for companies to have different cultures?

You think this person would have committed suicide wherever they worked

I think nothing about the individual in question, other than a blurb in a news story, so I'm not going to make a diagnosis about this individual. I strongly urge others to do the same. My statement stands: blame Amazon if you like, but leaving it at that doesn't save anyone.

> I sat down and compared the reported suicide rates of 400K FoxConn employees versus China in general

You are saying it, like they just happen to work at FoxConn and decided to do it at their workplace and the environment plays no role in it. But that's not how humans work, environment is the key. And Amazon, just like FoxConn, is absolutely the one to blame.

No one anecdote, positive or negative, tells us anything definitive. With Amazon there's been a cacophony of consistent negative feedback that by far outweighs what we hear about other large tech companies. Amazon has lost the benefit of the doubt.

> If you hate your job, wouldn't the courageous thing be to go get a different job?

That makes an assumption that it's even an option. It's not always so, and not because of competency reasons.

1) Some visas are often tied to specific jobs. You could be putting your continued residency in the country at risk by leaving.

2) Amazon forks out a bunch of money by way of signing bonuses and relocation money etc. etc, which typically tie you to the company for 2 years (it's a reasonable policy, the expense is far from trivial and they need to recoup at least that much in value from your employment). If you don't stay for the 2 years, then you become liable for the entire amount (maybe pro-rated would be better/fairer). It's quite possible that individuals find themselves in a position where they literally can not afford to quit Amazon, unless they can find another employer willing to cover that money.

People feel incredibly isolated to do things like this. It is a david goliath solution -- so people should become goliaths. Band together, form unions and revolt. Utilize the press and the media, spread hyperbole and make the employer look like shit, make a class action lawsuit. Don't jump off buildings... This is more emblematic of an achievement oriented culture and a nation that judges itself by money than the fault of "Amazon" IMO. No one forces anyone to work there and anyone could probably get a job as a freelance coder or burger flipper. not worth building your identity around.

she said she quit in the 4th paragraph I think, although when I read the first paragraph this was at least partially my initial thought. at top tech companies people get their ego's and self worth overly intertwined with their job and career progression because people around them are so impressed with the companies they work for, so I see where she is coming from.

I had this same experience at Facebook, and I feel for her, but when a manager wants you to quit (as her manager clearly did) take a hint or be prepared to get needled by the boss every time they see you.

If the manager wants a person to quit, why don't they just put the person on Performance Improvement Plan or something equivalent? Instead going through the effort of needling someone every time?

Is "firing" not a thing anymore?

if the reason they want you to leave is relationship based (i.e. people don't like you, but you still do your job effectively) then firing isn't really an option due to legal ramifications, PIPs can be though, but not always.

said this below as well, but relationship issues aren't always PIP worthy if the person does their job well enough outside of being unlikeable.

     at top tech companies people get their ego's and self worth overly intertwined with their job and career progression

That is exactly what a pressure cooker is. Your management chain is constantly encouraging you to equate your work quality/quantity with your worth as a human being. You want to be a good person, right? Well Jeff over there is a good person, and he worked longer than you. He also doesn't complain as much as you. Sure, you're complaining about all of Jeff's production bugs that you have to fix, but that's beside the point.

I'll probably get downvoted as well for agreeing with you, but I agree.

Committing suicide is not the answer when you have a very clear alternative: Leave and get another job.

It is NEVER "courageous" to commit a suicide. I understand why some people do it, but that still doesn't make it "courageous". Committing suicide is running away from reality. Period.

This is grossly oversimplifying suicide...

For your consideration:

“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.”

-David Foster Wallace, Infinite Jest

As I read your comment, I thought, "Wow, this HN user has an amazing command of their words and a disturbingly clear understanding of suicidal ideation."

And then it turned out to be a DFW quote.

God, he was a compelling writer - and I've only read The Pale King and various essays.

Being an outsider like many readers out there, nobody knows what REALLY goes on there inside Amazon. There are stories portraying from both sides. So yeah, I believe what you suggest is possible.

However, what I do believe one should not take the job too seriously (if you consider it's such a shitty place to work for.) Your life is too short to be wasted working at some place you feel miserable and your life is too precious to be ended for the sole reason to call out the miserable working condition at any given place.

Agreed that you shouldn't take your job so seriously.

I think when you're in the eye of the storm of depression, it's not easy to think straight and make decisions that objectively seem logical, like just getting out.

Everyone I've known at Amazon seems aware of the problems in the environment. Amazon is a high pressure, high growth company.

I don't believe that people are missing a sense of compassion for folks who are not compatible with the working situation.

I agree with you on the idea that contemplating suicide is problematic- but to say there is a single problem is a gross oversimplification. I don't like this blogpost either- but the problem isn't just a suicidal employee.

Managers have an obligation to both the company and their staff to help employees navigate these situations as best as possible. In the case of this jumper, someone might have dropped the ball.

It's also just as possible that there was no ball dropped. The CDC says ~42k Americans commit suicide every year. Suicides aren't just about one thing usually. What are the circumstances in the life of the person who jumped that warrant this peevish posting?

I don't see anything here other than an opportunistic post by someone emotional. They clearly have been asking for help and continue to suffer on some level. It's exploitative to use someone else's suicide attempt to draw attention to your own employment problems. Whether or not it's their employer that is the true source of the problem is unknowable.

This is the Internet! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I agree with you and I'm afraid that current education doesn't give young people the tools to deal with adversity, challenges and failure. They've substituted self-reliance and responsibility with a focus on blaming. I've met a lot of young professionals who have a hard time standing up for themselves because the perceived risk. They are afraid of losing their jobs if they did. Unfortunately they don't realize that company isn't worth their time given the stress. Certain cultures also teach total obedience to your superiors, and this is toxic as well.

I think it's unfair to single Amazon out because they aren't unique in this. I've seen it at other large co's and in academia as well. There's abundance of company politics, toxicity, emotions and sludge around and to keep sane, healthy, relatively stress-free requires a toolkit of abilities to help navigate.

What's interesting about this is we have no data on the number of people working for large companies who commits suicide not on company premises. Ditto for anyone taking their life not working for a company that isn't vilified like Amazon or well known. What if this person had worked at a beloved company would we then be more likely to think it was the person and not the company? Obviously people en mass are not taking their own life working for Amazon. Or any other company that I know of.

> He calls the person who jumped off the roof brave

I never got how people are called 'brave' in this situation or even if they jump onto train tracks to save the life of a stranger.

>If you are a good employee then getting another job shouldn't be that difficult.

Is this always true? I've seen horrible employees get spectacular references for their next job. I've seen incredible employees get snubbed on the way out due to political reasons or personal differences.

I've also seen great employees try to leave and the company turn against them. I've also seen employees hired that had spectacular references that turned out to be awful and needed to be terminated.

If you aren't a good employee then it is hardly the company's fault.

Everything wrong with America's workaholic white collar ethos, in one soundbite.

> He calls the person who jumped off the roof brave and said he wish he had the courage to do that.

I believe the author is a she.

> If you hate your job, wouldn't the courageous thing be to go get a different job?

The word courageous is the real casualty here.

It takes a very special kind of snowflake to take another's suicide and use it as a springboard for their own story about how bad their manager was. Very bizarre indeed.

It is, at least, honest: "here is someone who did what I was too cowardly to do".

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