Comment by shostack | Hacker News Reader

Comment by shostack | Hacker News Reader

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Haven't seen "Nosedive" yet but just saw White Christmas. While we don't have the wetware enhancements for that yet, it did give a chilling look at how society would react if you had an AR overlay that somehow classified people as "undesirable." This was really highlighted at the end when he walks into the busy market and shows up as red to people.

While I have reservations about governments using a system like this as it is...you get into some fascinating and terrifying scenarios when you enable public access to this sort of thing. Imagine being added to some list because of an error, and then having the entire public viewing you and just assuming you are a bad person because you are on that list without giving you the chance to do anything about it or perhaps even know they are aware of that.

As a more tangible example, imagine if something like the infamous Lulu app (that lets women rate and apply tags to men they've dated and only lets other women see the ratings...kind of like an exclusive Yelp for men) was combined with ubiquitous AR. Now imagine you had a falling out with an ex and you're trying to start dating again. You now have to deal with all of the (potentially quite false) assumptions someone you might be interested in is making about you based on how your ex rated you in addition to whatever other assumptions they would normally make without it.

And odds are you'd never even know they made their decision before you even saw them because they previously scanned the room with a rating filter like Amazon and only care about people above their threshold. We worry now about the impact of filter bubbles with things like Facebook. Now think about having them applied to people you interact with in your day-to-day.

This already exists. My parents own a bar and were pitched a technology that would instantly screen problem patrons from a cloud-based data store. Further it can "remember" problem patrons if you flag them on your internal cameras and then use that to prevent them from entering in the future. It currently has many customers in the US.

Whats this called? Are there any checks and balances against it? Like, would someone ever know they were in this system or have recourse to see their data and challenge it?

I could totally picture insurance companies being all over something like this, and it is really scary to think about the lack of transparency and how you'll never know if you are in one of those databases.

PatronScan[1], no, no. https://www.patronscan.com/id-scanner-for-bars/

Holy crap that's creepy as hell.

From a technology perspective, there might be some clever stuff there, but probably not.

It's just a sign of things to come I think.

> The age of the patron is displayed for every scan, and the ID scanner operator can be alerted if the patron exceeds the minimum or maximum age set by management.

The maximum age.

> If patrons break the rules, then ban them from every venue using PatronScan in North America.

> The Banned Patrons List is shared with every other venue using PatronScan

> PatronScan ID scanners give you live stats about […], the gender distribution, and the average age [of patrons].

Wow. Just … wow.

I wonder what the legality is about barring someone from an establishment based on a maximum age like that.

What exactly is so disturbing about a company digitizing what bouncers have been doing for decades?

Bouncers don't typically work for multiple clubs, you can't hack into their brains, they have imperfect memory, etc

This is like asking, what's wrong with state owned security cameras on the streets? It's digitizing what bystanders have been doing for centuries.

Well, I don't see any problem with state owned security cameras.

> state owned security cameras

There is a difference between security cameras and surveillance cameras. Surveillance cams are broadcasted somewhere else (maybe even over internet) and stored and reviewed. Security cameras - are for security incidents and shouldn't be broadcasted or footage stored longer than necessary (matter of hours or days depending on location).

Too bad often times these state owned security cameras are actually surveillance cams disguised as innocuous things which they aren't. There is this Will Smith movie "Enemy of the State", it's fiction but our dystopic society is becoming ever more scary.

I'm not sure what the bouncers are doing is right, either, though for some reason I'm more comfortable with it. (Which I find to be a really bad answer, frankly: is this just pushing my "comfort" of what I'm willing to put up with too far?)

That link would possibly make a worthy HN submission. I'd upvote it. I perused a bit for a reference to facial-recognition but found nothing. It would integrate frightfully well. I often irritate clerks when attempting to purchase alcohol, I refuse to allow them to scan my driver-license. One such row at a 711 lead me to contact corporate HQ, where they assured me their policy was on my side and that per request, the clerk was obligated to do the math and apply a visual analysis of the ID. This is something I do on principle and in consideration of possible data abuse - not to be a prick. But most clerks become quite indignant, even when I try to politely explain that until I read a company policy expressly stating that my data isn't logged or used for any other purposes beyond validating my age, I prefer to not take the risk. "Get out!" she said to me, and some other things too.

Also, it seems https://www.servallbiometrics.com/ is the parent of PatronScan.

Submitted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13060655

In France, the law "Informatique et Liberte" from the 6th of January 1978 allows anyone to access datas stored about them and have them corrected or removed from any database.

https://www.cnil.fr/en/rights-and-obligations

Every western European country has one of those nowadays. Though I never heard about anyone trying to exercise that kind of right, and I wonder if there is any way to verify that your data has actually been removed, or just a NO_SEND_MAIL flag has been set.

The obvious answer is to upgrade to Yelp Premium so that you can choose which reviews appear first on your store page, and so you can respond to reviews. :-3

The wsj article mentions that citizens can check their scores with a visit to a government office - obviously that isn't too convenient. I wonder if the impact on your behavior would be stronger if you don't know your score (and/or it's comparatively difficult to find out, as it is now) or if you had a realtime counter on your phone...

Of course, you might be waiting in the long line if you're not green-lane eligible....

Now that is scary. Because here's the thing. Just because two people have a potentially volatile relationship, that doesn't become an assumption that either parties are now no longer good to mix with anyone else. They could end up meeting their soul mate next, but bc of an app, and an angry ex who said somethings probably best left unsaid outside their now defunct relationship... now you don't get a chance with the soul mate? That just isn't right. My ex husband was a very very poor match for me. However his new wife and he were made for each other. You see?

Yes, there are potential negatives if it is abused. Like with literally anything ever created. You have to weigh that against the much larger number of encounters with actual bad people that can be safely avoided. In fact, if that didn't happen, people wouldn't use the app in the first place.

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