Yeah, again and again. it's like blaming a hammer for the potential of breaking your finger when you use it, and proposing the use of a spoon, instead.
If you are in for cutting a tree, go for it.
I personally judge a language by how well it lets you to define abstractions. In C's case, it doesn't let you do that very well.
- A lack of suitable replacement for C?
- C is too ubiquitous?
- C has been an integral part of most of the best software ever written?
I would guess the "C apologism" in the original comment is referring to defenses of C that pretend C is safe "in practice" (or "for people who know what they're doing") or minimise/ignore the strong correlation between the use of C and serious problems/vulnerabilities.
Otherwise, I'd say try something like Rust. And if Rust doesn't make the cut, maybe go write your own C-like dialect, with less undefined behaviour.
There, fixed it for you. Seriously, vulnerabilities and bugs are found everywhere not just in C.
I've been programming for 35 years, in so many languages I lost count, and every time I've seen the 'let's not use C because it'll lead to bugs' it was to be replaced by another thing that was ALSO leading to bugs, and/or become so bloated it was in itself... a bug.
B: "I've been using syringes for 35 years and clean needles won't get rid of HIV entirely".
Well no duh. But that isn't really a counter argument.
> become so bloated it was in itself
Whereas C is the pinnacle of expressiveness?
I realise the compiler/runtime can't stop all bugs but fixing these simple errors goes a long way to producing robust secure software.
The black-and-white security fallacy again!
The simple fact (and this is a fact, not an opinion) is that the most severe security problems—remote code execution, in particular—are found way way way more in programs written in C and C++ than in other languages.
However, the nature of where C/C++ code is used does lend itself to severe problems. When you have a JVM vulnerability, you shouldn't be able to get any farther than a regular user with only sandbox privileges. When you have a kernel vulnerability, by definition you have the keys to the kingdom.
Of course there are always holes that can be used to escalate, but that also comes back to the problems of having a primarily C/C++ ecosystem...
HN is probably something like 99% web and app developers (I would argue that all are the former, but my definition may be a bit old). In those cases, you actively don't want to ever use C and anyone who does is kind of an idiot. It is the logic by which "systems project" means "script to run on a server" for a lot of people around here.
And that is fine. But just like this place's obsession with Rust would lead to derisive mockery by "real" systems people, so too is C hated here.
It also doesn't help that universities, at least in the US, seem hellbent on teaching along these lines. A few years ago Eclipse was "the thing you use when you are poor or doing Java". These days? I am seeing disturbing numbers of graduates who refuse to use Visual Studio for a project on Windows and insist on boostrapping together something that is only half functional. And talking to my academia friends (and even doing a fair amount of guest lecturing for them), I know where the indoctrination is coming from.
We were supposed to be able to use C in the OS design classes from our C++ learnings.
My problem is the almost dogmatic indoctrination that goes along with it. My cousin's Intro to CS class was taught by a professor who spent about a third of the time basically parroting Stallman (he actually would regularly bring up blog posts and articles on the screen and read them to the class...) and screaming about how everyone needs to use either Vim or Jetbrains tools. That isn't teaching. That is pushing an agenda. And it just makes for worse students and hell for those of us who still spend some time with the interns and new hires.
Always explore new and better tools. But understand why. Sous-vide is awesome and has the potential to make some of the best food you will ever eat. But it also understand that even a "worse" method can be much more efficient or effective.
To quote Alan Kay: Actually I made up the term "object-oriented", and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind.
And while there are better languages from an educational standpoint, having something that is usable/"real" is quite valuable.
But I definitely approach things from a more practical/industry oriented perspective. so grain of salt.
There's no such thing as "C/C++". They're two totally different languages. (C++ actually has more in common with something like Haskell than C.)
That nomenclature has been around for decades. We ALL know they're different languages.
Most generalizations about HN are merely projection based on sample bias, so please don't post such generalizations unless you have representative data.
We're thinking about adding that sentence to the site guidelines, because spurious general claims about HN are a cliché here.
And, I thought it was pretty clear with the "probably something like" and "99%" that it was a number being pulled out of my arse for the sake of discussion.
That being said, actual data on the skillsets and interests of the more active members would be a very interesting bit of data. But it is also really hard to measure as lurkers don't contribute to discussion but will gladly vote in a poll.
It's extremely common to do this (I'm not picking on you personally!), but such generalizations have no objective value and lead to repetitive, low-quality discussion, which is why I think we're going to add a guideline asking people not to do it.
And if your issue is actually that I very clearly pulled a number out of my arse and went out of my way to make it clear that I had: Are you also going to make it mandatory for everyone to preface every non-cited statement with "in my opinion"?
Look, I get that this is your bread and butter and that it is important for HN to be presented as being THE place for tech and blah blah blah and being pigeonholed into "a site for web and app developers who like silicon valley" isn't necessarily what you want, but trying to pretend that a rule to not "generalize" as a way to not have people speculate and discuss why some topics just aren't particularly welcome here isn't the way to go. Just make it a rule, you aren't fooling anyone.
Also, if you REALLY wanted to improve discussions here: Make a rule against pseudo-technical naval gazing (is there a term for that? "Naval gazing" is more associated with philosophy and potheads) as far too many threads devolve into "We can't help but be introverted because our minds are designed that way and I need to be isolated to code because I need to optimize everything".
Except it isn't.
It's just a hammer, with a handle of a hammer.
> And also sometimes explodes killing
Except it doesn't.
At best, some people are reckless and end up causing problems due to their recklessness.
Enough with these silly hyperboles. Cushioned environments lead to less problems.
It is what it is. It's not user friendly because hardware just isn't, low levels aren't, and it has to just perform.
> 'idiotically dangerous'
Well, I don't want to sound harsh, but nobody forces anybody to do systems programming if they perceive C as such. There is JavaScript, python and plethora of other safe and cozy languages, but: the low level has to be done.
Simply most of us don't have your towering intellect to appreciate it. Got it.
Tools are tools, some are used with a great amount of care: jackhammers, routers, compression hammers, chainsaws etc.
Heck: driving a vehicle is probably the single most dangerous activity we do on a daily basis.
This is a tautology.
What do you expect to happen on signed overflow?
We shouldn't have to work like this anymore. C's been an amazing language, but it's getting time to gently, respectfully, move on. There's active and interesting development in alternatives which attempt to retain C's primary advantages while also allowing the compiler to keep you out of trouble as much as possible.
We have hugely powerful computers available to use as developers. We can contemplate designing and compiling languages with a complexity which would have completely defeated the systems available when C was developed. Why shouldn't we use some of that power to make our lives easier?
thought you were talking about java bloatware for a second. Oh your OS doesn't have 1.2gb for HelloWorld.class? Enjoy your OutOfMemoryException!