Married to someone with anxiety | Hacker News Reader

Married to someone with anxiety

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427 pointsthrowaway309198 comments

Thank you for writing this. When people talk about these issues it becomes easier and more acceptable to society and it helps lessen anxiety stigmas.

As someone who suffers from anxiety and who regularly seeks therapy, I can say that the rituals that have helped me are:

- Realizing that anxiety isn't who you are, but more like a disturbance that will pass

- Eating, sleeping, exercising, and practicing mindfulness go a long way

- Knowing and dealing with the physiological reactions helps. Realizing that anxiety is a fight or flight response and is often based on fears of the future, which causes heart to race and breath to shorten. Therefore, simply forcing yourself to take large breaths and being mindful about the state of your body helps bring you back to the present and not let your mind get into "rabbit holes"

One piece of advice I have for you is to not take on the role of mental health professional in your relationship. This isn't your problem and you can quickly tire yourself out. All you have to do to support is help your wife accept her current state, and help remind her of living in the present. If her condition is severe enough, encourage her to see a psychiatrist in addition to a therapist too. It may help greatly.

"One piece of advice I have for you is to not take on the role of mental health professional in your relationship"

So much this. My first husband was schizo-affective. I often felt I was in the role of caregiver and part-time mental health professional, all while trying to work to supoprt us both. And this was while he had medications to help him and very regular psychiatrist appointments.

Looking back, I should have insisted that I was ill-prepared to do all the stuff. I should have insisted on some therapy for myself as well, and asked for more help from the mental health services, possibly wellness checks and other such things. It is so much easier to say this stuff now in my late 30's than it was in my early to mid 20's, however.

> I should have insisted on some therapy for myself as well

Yes. So much this. I suffer from pretty serious anxiety. And just a few months ago I was fighting through the worst of it. Looking back at how much my wife was doing and how stressed she was... I feel like she could've benefitted from therapy almost more than me.

I wish we as a culture can get over the therapy stereotypes. Both my kids see a therapist on a regular basis and have been for years (adopted through foster care. Lots of trauma). We've been trying to help them learn how helpful it is. It's fun to see them ... brag(?) ... about going to therapy. They are excited when I ask them after work about their day and how they got to see their friend, the therapist.

When talking to other people who feel like they need therapy but are too embarrassed, and just tell them about my kids. Ask them if they would judge them for going. Talk about how much they love it.

One day therapy will be more common!

My problem with "therapy" is that the word is woefully undefined.

Sticking an ice pick up a person's nose, into their brain, and just moving the pick around has been counted as therapy.

Wasn't that done through the eye socket?

They're talking cognitive behavioural therapy.

Yeah and leeches used to be called "medicine" but if you shy away from doctors because of what the profession practiced in the past (things that are illegal now) you're not exactly doing yourself any favors.

Therapy these days does not mean lobotomies.

Ok, so therapy has moved from lobotomies to...

As I said, therapy seems to be devoid of any real definition.

psychotherapy is a form of treatment for many psychological disorders as defined by the DSM-V. The treatment varies based on the therapist's style and patient preference, but it always centers around talking to a licensed professional about the patient's feelings, behaviors, thoughts, dreams, fears. Through talking, the therapist can spot patterns of harmful and destructive beliefs and thought patterns. To use a bit of jargon, they can deconstruct a patient's defenses and suggest changes in thoughts/actions that - if followed - may often alleviate some or all of the symptoms. Perhaps the thing that bothers you is that it's an inexact science ?

BTW, NIMH has turned away from the DSM due to "lack of validity ".

https://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/directors/thomas-insel/blog/2...

If it's that inexact, I wouldn't call it science.

There's presently no standard objective laboratory test for Anxiety, Depression, or similar.

> There's presently no standard objective laboratory test

I don't know what's so special about a "laboratory". Is there a name yet for this fallacy "because a machine told me, it must be true." ? Should we name it the "calculator fallacy" or the "internet fallacy" ?

from your link: "That is why NIMH will be re-orienting its research away from DSM categories." Its research, it doesn't do any good to toss DSM for treatment of mental disorders. I believe thats why they revise the DSM every year (?), is to keep up with changes in diagnosis. If a new classification system comes along, then replace "DSM" with whatever they call theirs.

As astaloli said, the DSM is not valid.

If changes in diagnoses are changing yearly...the NIMH seems completely correct in rejecting the book.

> the DSM is not valid.

that makes treatment easy then. POOF! all mental illness disappears because the book is "invalid". FYI you're using a defense called denial[1] when you do that :)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial

We do actually need valid treatment.

That's going to be hard to organise if no one is sure what they're supposed to be treating.

It looks like you're using a God of the Sciences argument - because we don't have a full and complete model of mental anguish and self-defeating behaviours, nothing we currently believe about them can be useful or true.

This turns out to be inaccurate. Therapies are tested regularly. Some score better than others, and statistically the results are at least as valid as the result of clinical drug trials.

It would be useful to have a complete Theory of Mind, but no such thing is likely to exist for a while.

Luckily it isn't needed to make a difference. The most useful therapies are results-oriented rather than process-oriented, and the most consistent results come from behavioural reinforcement techniques (where "behaviour" includes "persistent emotional states.")

This doesn't mean other kinds of therapy are useless. But they are less reliable - which may be because they can be more challenging for both sides, or because they don't work, or for all kinds of other reasons.

I upvoted you, but I would like to say that I think jsprogrammer's remarks being downvoted into oblivion is not warranted. He (she?) may have made his (her?) point inartfully, but it is a valid point: what is the basis for believing that "therapy" (whatever it may mean at this particular point in time) actually works, that it is anything more than a placebo?

For example, this to me is a yellow flag:

> talking to a licensed professional

Why is licensure such a key feature? Licensure can be as much an indication of political corruption and protectionism as scientific validity.

[EDIT: Just for the record, I actually do believe that therapy works, and I have advocated for it myself. That doesn't make it any less valid to ask the question: what is the basis for this belief?]

> jsprogrammer's remarks being downvoted into oblivion is not warranted.

he's making loaded statements out of ignorance because he wont bother to google psychotherapy's definition. There is a therapeutic process to talking and learning to manage emotions and cope with defenses.

Licensure is a key feature so you prohibit people from making fake therapeutic claims or quackery. Or to limit taking advantage of emotionally vulnerable people (it still happens, but licensure requires insurance). Same reason you or I can't call ourselves doctors and claim to cure physiological illness. Do you disagree with that "licensure" too ? Why can't you and I open up a back and spinal clinic ? We could probably make a lot of dough.

I dont know why its acceptable to denigrate the field of psychology. Is the 'engineering way' the only way to solve problems ? Should they just "stop it" until they have humans figured out down to a schematic/circuit ? Then they can treat all the anxiety/depression from our overworked consumerist lifestyles and make us into the perfect capitalist cattle ? Is psychology bullshit because Apple doesn't yet sell iPsychometers with USB-C interfaces so we can patch our brains with the latest "update" and all be perfect?

Humans aren't machines and healing or treatment for psychological pain and mental illness isn't done by running a script. It's done by interviewing patients, classifying symptoms, taking surveys, attempting (and often failing) treatments, doing double blind trials. Things that aren't deterministic, which is also the nature of reality. Why can't you face that ?

edit: let me give you specific examples of why you need a license to practice:

* patient comes in and says they were raped. and the alleged rapist is still doing it. unlicensed quack might be scared to report it to the police, might avoid helping the patient at all because it's "too difficult", or might try to exploit abuse victim for his own sexual pleasure.

* elderly suicidal patient divulges financial info to therapist, who then tips off a dirty lawyer/estate planner into contacting the patient and stealing /exploiting him.

* husband and wife go to therapy. Husband knows he's getting divorced but doesn't want to pay half. So he pays off the therapist to give biased testimony in court blaming the wife for false actions.

* therapist was personally harmed by a particular person earlier in life. now they take joy in intentionally misleading/upsetting other patients who look/act like the one who hurt them.

I hope this is enough to see why the field is regulated.

> Why can't you face that ?

What makes you think I can't? (And why are you getting so defensive?)

> I dont know why its acceptable to denigrate the field of psychology.

Don't confuse denigration with legitimate criticism. Jsprogrammer's comments may have been loaded and ignorant, but they were not wrong: lobotomization was in fact considered a legitimate therapy in the not-so-distant past. And Psychology has a very checkered history, e.g.:

http://jeffreymasson.com/books/final-analysis.html

And a current replication crisis:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis#Psychology

So some skepticism of the profession's claims is not entirely unwarranted.

BTW, but for the defensive tone, I think your response was very good, and exactly the sort of thing that is needed in this discussion. I upvoted you again.

I apologize, yes I was defensive. Probably because I need more practice having my ideas challenged. Thank you for bringing this to my attention and I will work on it. (and thank you HN for somehow cultivating a community where we can have such a forum).

Absolutely, I agree that the field is not perfect. Let me address the link you sent (I haven't read the book): Psychoanalysis (also called the psychodynamic method) is but one of several prominent forms of therapy. I've never undertaken it, as I cannot afford to go 3hrs/week for a year or more, so I cannot talk from experience. I have read quite a bit about it from textbooks and I see a lot of merit to at least the theory. Merit, I say, because it appeared to corroborate with anecdotal evidence from my own life. I have seen the pattern in people, over and over again, who re-enact the behaviors they learned during their youth. You particularly hear about it with domestic violence: girls that grow up seeing mommy getting beat up (somehow) (very often) seem to become attracted to violent men and repeat the cycle. Boys who grow up seeing daddy beat up mommy (tend to) become aggressive toward women when they are adults.

So I don't personally think the entire field of psychoanalysis is bullshit. The books I've read said that a good psychoanalyst can shake the patient to their core. It sounds like they are trained to sniff out the patient's malignant / self-defeating behaviors and show them how they are reenacting them in the therapeutic relationship. From there, I don't know exactly how they motivate change, but once they break you down on such a primitive emotional level, once your defenses are removed and layed before you, it makes sense that you would be weakened enough to consider making a change.

So that's my case for psychoanalysis. Now, of course someone could take advantage of that. Maybe a patient is simply bipolar and their problems have nothing to do with reenacting their mom's abuse cycle. An unethical therapist could take advantage of that and milk the patient for 3 years' therapy and then say "oh yeah actually you just need to be on meds". It's malpractice and I'm sure it goes on every day in the medical field. MD's milking medicare. experienced dr's running unnecessary tests "just to be sure" when they know exactly whats wrong. Doing an X-ray in the hospital instead of an outpatient clinic so they can charge 3X more. Malpractice will always be around both in medicine and psychology.

> I haven't read the book

You should. It's an eye-opener.

> Licensure is a key feature so you prohibit people from making fake therapeutic claims or quackery.

Here in Canada, diary farmers need to be licensed to sell dairy products, as do poultry producers (chicken, turkey, eggs, etc.)

Not because anyone is worried about someone selling fake milk or trying to claim ducks are chicken (quackery, get it?). If they were, they'd be equally worried about farmers producing other kinds of food, whom we do not require licensing from. Rather, the story behind it is much simpler: The government at one point found it important to disallow competition to give the people operating in these markets an advantage to help them remain viable, for similar reasons as to why the US has provided farm subsidies over the years.

Anyway, the point being that regulation does not necessarily legitimize a profession. It may simply be an indictor of what interests lobbied hard enough to get economic protection.

I dont doubt that regulation enables regulatory capture, but what if assholes started selling dairy products that weren't up to sanitary code ? Say, like, a food truck. One day it's there, one day they're gone (conveniently after selling 50gal of tainted milk that sickens dozens). what do you do about that ?

Well it's certainly a good thing that we never see such incidents of malpractice with licensed professions like medicine and law.

Treat them the same way we treat the unlicensed farmers who have just as much ability to taint their products...?

I actually hope that regular mental health checks are as common as physicals. One way to reduce the stigma, anyway. Until then, suggestions to folks that are intersecting the system would do well - on top of actually having enough trained professionals to do so.

The last bit might be one key to it: Sometimes folks have trouble even finding an free practitioner. The problems get even worse in the US if you are low-income since not everywhere will take medicaid.

>One piece of advice I have for you is to not take on the role of mental health professional in your relationship. This isn't your problem and you can quickly tire yourself out.

This is precisely the opposite of what happened in the post in question. Cause of anxiety was wanting to live a lifestyle and not wanting to work a stressful job. Marriage and "permission" to quit solved the issue immediately. None of the therapy stuff did them any good, she didn't need therapy as soon as the underlying problem was identified and solved by them. No amount of sleeping, exercising or eating kale would have solved that.

I get a different impression from the post. Rather than quitting and marriage solving the problem immediately, I think she still has anxiety, because he wrote: "She still has anxiety, and I imagine she always will. But we are able to deal with this in a much more productive way. Sure, there are times where it all gets a bit too much"

I don't think it's correct to say "None of the therapy stuff did them any good" because therapy isn't mentioned in the post. If you meant counseling, he mentioned that positively, in the context of the useful decision to quit the job: "we found a private counsellor who could help get to the route of what was causing some of this anxiety — we then discussed a lot of these sessions and reflected on them and tried to put into practice some of the advice we were receiving. We also made big and brave decisions like my wife quitting her exhausting job up in London"

>She still has anxiety, and I imagine she always will.

Wouldn't it be strange for a human being to have no anxiety ?

>we found a private counsellor who could help get to the route of what was causing some of this anxiety

I understood this as the counsellor putting a rubber stamp on what they already knew, so that the decision could be made guilt free.

Feeling anxious sometimes and suffering from anxiety attacks are different things. Most people (I assume) don't suffer from anxiety attacks like described here. The people who do get anxiety attacks would like it to stop.

By switching jobs I went from anxious and uncertain to happy and outgoing. It's not complicated.

>> Cause of anxiety was wanting to live a lifestyle and not wanting to work a stressful job. Marriage and "permission" to quit solved the issue immediately.

I am goin to play the devil's advocate but it would solve all of my problems if I would marry someone ritch who pays my bills while I quit my stressfull job and follow my passion. And she should also write a blog post about it.

"- Realizing that anxiety isn't who you are, but more like a disturbance that will pass"

Absolutely. Roll with it, it will pass, there is no question of this. Keep going, if you can, and wait for it to lift.

Yes, good point to try to keep in mind.

> Realizing that anxiety isn't who you are, but more like a disturbance that will pass

This is the right attitude during an anxiety attack, because while it is happening there isn't much you can do but to remind yourself that it's going to pass. However, my personal experience is that anxiety is not a random infliction but something that can have very concrete causes that need to be worked on. Identifying these causes can be a long process, though. In many cases anxieties arise when we have deeply rooted unhealthy habits that seem so much part of our lives that it doesn't even occur to us that they could possibly be changed. OP writes that his wife had to commute four hours a day which in itself will affect mental well-being but which may also point to career issues. Fixing that was apparently part of the solution.

>> This isn't your problem and you can quickly tire yourself out.

This is totally right.

>> All you have to do to support is help your wife accept her current state, and help remind her of living in the present.

And this is totally wrong. I lived 4 years long together with someone having anxiety like the wife of the OP. We could literally never go out just like other joung couples because she was afraid of crowded places. Guess who did I met on the overcrowded dancing floor 3 months after breaking up? She and her friends.

People sometimes only need the opportunity and free space to take the responsibility for their own conditions and to take care about their own shit. With great responsibility comes great power.

After a 10 year fight induced from stress, I can positively say that I'm free from it, just reading a page like this would have floored me 5 years ago.

Some stuff I learned:

- Stop* with coffee, for some reason tea does not the same thing to my body, coffee is like gasoline on the anxiety fire, I cant stress this point enough.

- Stop* with nicotine, (almost) same as coffee

- Stop* drinking, you need to stay strong 7 days a week to get out of it

- Start walking, at least 8km during weekdays day, in brisk pace, you should have to take a shower after. After each walk, do a workout, pushups, chins etc. Make this a priority, and dont walk when its dark outside, you need the sunlight.

- In the beginning, avoid everything stressful, its not hiding, its waiting until strong enough

- Stoicism contains allot of valuable lessons for us, its where CBT came from after all.

- If you come out on this like me on the right side (I hope), and your loved one is still by your side, remember that !

All the best !

*) To stop with something like "drinking" and coffee, it seems hard and rash, but it really helps, and dont make the mistake to once in a while break the rule, its much easier to stick to the rule if there are zero exceptions, less inner conversation, less guilt, more pride.

>Start walking, at least 8km... dont walk when its dark outside, you need the sunlight.

An 8km walk at a brisk walking pace is a little under an hour and a half (average 10k running times is about an hour). I get out of work at 5pm, and it's officially dark by 5:30pm. I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but this one is literally impossible for anyone in the northern latitudes (New York, Chicago, Seattle, London, Berlin, Hong Kong, even San Fransisco is officially dark before 6pm this time of year).

Instead, I'd suggest focusing on taking vitamin D supplements if you don't have a lot of sun then taking a vigorous walk whenever you can. You don't need one more thing to be anxious about!

You can do it in the morning without too much trouble, if you can drag yourself out of bed. I get up around 6, and walk my dog 3-4 miles every morning between 6:30-7:30. This is a bit north of Boston, and it's already getting dark by 4:30 PM now, so afternoons are out. Whee, daylight savings time!

... unless you have to be to work at 7 like me.

Yes, I know, I live far north where the sun sets early and comes up late, we also have harsh winters, so its a challenge.

But building muscles and stamina is critical for recovery and walking/workout is something almost everyone can do. Running is much much harder, it takes a heavier toll on the body and when starting out your more likely to get sick etc.

When you set the routine (takes a month), you will long for walk every day, everything seems to calm down allot during and after the walks.

There's no rule that you have to do a specific amount, the same amount, at the same time, all at once, every day. Just break it up and relax.

Take a quick break from work in the mid-morning and walk outside for 15 minutes instead of drinking coffee. Go out for half an hour (or whatever) at lunchtime, go for another 15 min break in the afternoon instead of more coffee. Occasionally invite a coworker to go with you. If you can discuss business (on occasion) you can keep working while you walk. Then another 20 minutes in the dark after work.

And some days less, some days more, and extra on weekends.

The requirement to obey strict walking rules will end up CAUSING the anxiety it's supposed to relieve. Just make it a fun break and take fun breaks here and there when you can.

> Start walking, at least 8km during weekdays day, in brisk pace, you should have to take a shower after. After each walk, do a workout, pushups, chins etc. Make this a priority, and dont walk when its dark outside, you need the sunlight.

That's over 90 minutes walking every weekday plus time for the workout and clean-up after. Difficult to make time for and rather unpleasant in rain, bitter cold, and/or snow. There's currently 9 1/2 hours of daylight per day here, pretty hard to work full-time, commute, and devote this much time to exercise during the day.

I'm fully aware of this, I just had to get back to life before it all gone and this is what I did, it may not be the right thing for everybody, but I sincerely think that particular the training, being out during the day, strengthening my body, is what that final got me back on track.

Its like reaching a threshold when everything is "snowballing" in the right direction.

> this is what I did, it may not be the right thing for everybody

That's great, I'm glad it's working for you. Conceptually, they all seem like good ideas but your expression was very prescriptive.

Sorry, English is not my first language.

I'll second the walking when it is dark. I live in Norway. Tomorrow, the sun rises a bit after 9 and sets before 3. If you work first shift or office hours, you miss the light. This advice just isn't possible for some people.

If you are finding that the season's darkness gets you, it is really a seperate issue. Vitamin D helps a lot of folks as does light therapy.

I know that in the real world, people have work to do, kids to fetch and all those things, but if you can, please try, its not just about the sunlight = Vitamin D, its also about the sensory input you get while walking, that is very soothing and distracting, everything calms down considerably during and after.

Yep, if you ever want a good nights sleep, go somewhere you haven't been before and spend a few hours walking around. Gets the mind working overtime, in a good subconscious way.

But you miss so much of the sensory stuff - and beauty - if you don't go out at night! To be fair, a few times a year I catch things like Northern lights: Downtown is just charming with the christmas lights up on the trees with snow on the ground. In autumn the air smells like leaves, and the snow leaves a crisp smell to the air and an oddly echoing silence. Sometimes it downright sparkles from the reflection of the streetlights. Ice isn't so wonderful to walk in unless you've good footwear or some sort of cleats to put on your shoes, but it does give a neat shiny coating to everything, which is especially beautiful during sunrise and sunset - and sometimes under the house lights the trees just glisten with ice.

Walking is my main form of transportation, so I do a great deal of it, and appreciate it so long as it isn't too cold. Granted, I used to view it the same way until I moved here.

> - Stop* with coffee, for some reason tea does not the same thing to my body, coffee is like gasoline on the anxiety fire, I cant stress this point enough.

Tea has the amino acid L-theanine [1] in it, which is supposed to reduce the "jittery" effects of coffee.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theanine

A very interesting amino acid that I have just started to experiment with [0]. On a side note, I highly recommend examine.com to anyone who struggles to find decent information on dietary supplementation. Not a member of the company, just a very impressed and grateful user.

[0] https://examine.com/supplements/theanine/

There are some indications that coffee's effect on anxiety depends on specific genetic pre-disposition:

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v33/n12/full/npp200817a.ht...

So not everybody will benefit from reducing caffeine intake. I think for most people, moderate caffein intake will actually have a positive effect on mood.

Thank you very much for the link, all I know is purely empirical, so this is very interesting read.

Great post!

Taking responsibility for your situations can also help a lot. If you treat anxiety as an illness you give up your power over the situation. If you consider it only as a temoraly condition it gets easier to make the needed changes and get out of the anxiety.

> a 4 hour commute (both ways)

What the fuck is this person doing and why do they think its okay? According to that paragraph she's home at 8pm. She leaves for work at 4am. That leaves 8 hours total to eat, sleep, and live your life.

He just brushes over that until later when she casually leaves her job (for no reason given). C'mon guy.. that was the root of the problem!

I had a 1.5h commute both ways and that caused me anxiety problems.

Yes, there is research showing that long commutes are associated with depression. Don't have the reference anymore but it shouldn't be difficult to find on Google Scholar.

He does mention 6am elsewhere in the article, so perhaps she works less than 8 hours. But spending 8 hours a day on commuting is a definite recipe for disaster.

Not to take from the article, but to each their own. I leave the house at 4:30am and typically get home around 6:30 to 7pm (it used to be 7:30). That includes stopping at the gym before catching the train to work. Pretty much the same schedule for about 5 years. Recently, I started working from home two days a week, so that has been nice. Granted, I get compensated well for that (lucky to be a software engineer). Would I like more time with the wife and kids? Of course. I would also like to be able for them to do things like eat healthy and participate in sports.

I've met a lady (single mom) on the train once. If I recall, her day started around the same time mine does, but to catch a bus, to catch another bus, to get to the train, to catch another bus to work, and then the reverse at the end of the day, usually getting home well after 8pm (when bus or train delays don't mess it up further). 5 days a week. Her role suggested to me that she likely did not make over 50k a year. Such is life.

That's different though. It sounds like you feel like you actively have the choice to work long hours. It sounded like she felt forced into it.

They likely meant both ways takes 4 hours (2 hours each way), which is still ridiculous and in no way invalidates your point.

I thought the same thing. A 4-hour (each way) commute means very little sleep. Low sleep for too long means hallucinations and eventually nervous breakdown.

OK - I'll bite. I haven't seen anyone mention medications here but personally I use propranolol.

Life. Changing.

For the first while I took it every day as prescribed for my ET. 20mg. And as I experienced the first pill (effects kick in about 40 minutes after), I had this realization "wait a minute, this is what it must feel like to be a normal person"! That light bulb in itself was incredible. Before that, I hadn't realized life could feel that good. I'd always wondered how people could do the things they could do ... and suddenly I didn't just realize but got to experience what it was like to be someone who DIDN'T have constant anxiety.

I cut back my dosage looking for minimum effective dose. Most days for me it's 0 (that's right, I don't take anymore on most days). My anxiety level has decreased because now I know -what it feels like not to be anxious-, plus, if I do feel anxious I have a solution at hand which lowers anxiety.

For a particularly stressful day I might take 5mg. (For me now a particularly stressful day means standing in front of a room of hundreds of people and presenting after 2 hours sleep.) At these infrequent low dosages, I don't experience any negative side-effects.

Worth sharing general personal details. I'm a 37 year old male in reasonably good health, I exercise vigorously twice a week and get a healthy amount of walking and biking in almost every day. I discovered propranolol by accident - it was prescribed for an essential tremor (ET), it was only after that I discovered the "off-label" anti-anxiety side-effects of beta blockers.

It's worth mentioning that I did experience negative side-effects when I was taking 20mg daily. If you can avoid taking it daily, that's going to be better for you in the long run.

* Reduced sex drive * Life just seems more "flat" I don't laugh as much, get as giddy. My partner described me as seeming "disconnected". * Cold limbs & numb tongue

> it was only after that I discovered the "off-label" anti-anxiety side-effects of beta blockers.

Could you possibly comment on the degree and characteristics (degree of moment, frequency, spiking under stressful situations) of your essential tremor, as well as offer any additional depth on off-label treatments?

The tremor was something I was aware of since I was a kid, showed up in bad handwriting and general "clumsiness" with fine motor movements. Nobody ever thought much of it other than that I was "clumsy".

It wasn't until I was 27 that I started to wonder whether there was something actually wrong that might be a root cause for it. At this point the tremor was bad enough that at times I had trouble holding a fork to eat. The intensity of the symptoms could vary a great deal from day to day. Granted, I was in grad school at this time and my stress levels were pretty high. I did notice that alcohol made it better, but treatment with alcohol is contraindicated...

Got a referral to neurology dept and after they watched me do some drawing, arrived at the conclusion of the problem quite quickly.

For more off-label info, might have a look at Wikipedia page on beta blockers, it's pretty thorough. Turns out quite a few musicians use it for stage fright & dexterity.

After more than 10 years of serious and progressing anxiety disorder I discovered this plant wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypericum (Hypericum Perforatum or Millepertuis in french). In less than 3 weeks I was a different man. Ironically it has one noticeable "side effect": it has aphrodisiac properties (I didn't know it but it became quite obvious after several weeks. It's confirmed by other sources too). Also raises your Photosensitivity. One year later I still take one filmed capsule of plant extract every other evening and I don't stop taking it for more than a week or else I start to feel the unforgettable signs of anxiety creeping back.

Do you have a preferred brand or online source?

I've also had good experiences with St Johns wort but found quality varies a lot from what you get at a pharmacy.

I have only used these: www.dieti-natura.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=millepertuis

Check http://consumerlab.com

I think I had mild self-diagnosed anxiety for a large portion of my life, which really took hold in college. I went through a majority of college without speaking to anyone, evaded those that did try to reach out to me, and eventually dropped out. And my online persona wasn't much different; I still remember strangers messaging me on IRC and my heart rate jumping several BPM from just a "hi".

I think I have arrived at a point in life where I am no longer nervous around strangers, but despite that I can't help but want that feeling back. It's relieving that I can interact with the rest of the world, but I can't help but feel like I've lost an important part of me; not just the anxiety but a major part of my personality.

I think these are two different things.

Social anxiety where being around other people makes you anxious is very different from anxiety where you are just worried all the time.

I say this because you are obviously talking about a completely different condition than the woman in this article.

You're absolutely right, at worst it was a mild inconvenience for me, nothing even close to the authors wife has to face.

Did your symptoms ever manifest on your skin? If so, did the propranolol affect that at all?

>> * Reduced sex drive * Life just seems more "flat" I don't laugh as much, get as giddy. My partner described me as seeming "disconnected".

Propranolol - like other drugs - changes your personality and makes an other person out of you. Replacing you through "Propranolol you" is not a real solution.

Care to provide us with a "real solution," then?

Easy to say for someone that doesn't rely on beta blockers. Take it from someone that does: 'beta blockers me' is the one I want to be forever.

When your partner has anxiety, every problem you have now becomes two problems.

Because when you have a problem (work, health, whatever) you now either have to

(1) figure out how to tell your partner without causing a meltdown (which will probably fail no matter what you do) or...

(2) just keep it to yourself (obviously unhealthy)

So that sucks. You have to partially mitigate it by reducing your partner's overall stress levels. And also learning how to communicate while tiptoeing through the fucking minefield of their emotions without getting your legs blown off. (Except the mines are moving so, good luck with that)

It's not their fault, they didn't choose this. You did.

The last line is the important one.

> It's not their fault, they didn't choose this. You did.

That's exactly right. You chose it. You chose to be a partner to that person. In the case of marriage, typically that means "in sickness and in health" and so you either step up to the plate and be the support they need, or you realize your mistake and move on before it destroys both of you.

That's the positive (yet realistic) take on what you're saying here, which I hope is your intent.

I'm a little bothered by your characterization of partnership with someone with a mental health condition as "...tiptoeing through the fucking minefield of their emotions..."

Mental health issues are not emotions. They may interplay to a degree, but do not mistake clinical anxiety or depression for someone being excessively emotional. It is a medical disorder of the brain that causes it to malfunction. My ending statement is a bit hyperbolic, but not really: dismissing a mental health disorder as emotions is how people end up dead.

I don't think we're saying anything different, really.

> Mental health issues are not emotions. They may interplay to a degree

Bit of an understatement in many cases, eh? "Interplay to a degree?" No, when it comes to anxiety, the emotion we call "anxiety" is just by definition the primary symptom.

Yeah, they "interplay to a degree" just like 3rd degree burns and having your skin slough off "interplay to a degree."

Nonetheless, your point is correct and vital.

Mental health issues can absolutely not be dismissed. There are deep seated physical and/or behavorial reasons for these problems.

They are every bit as real as breaking one's arm or one's spine, and mental health issues are in some ways much tougher to handle because they are "invisible." At least when you have a broken leg, nobody asks you to run a marathon.

> Mental health issues are not emotions. They may interplay to a degree, but do not mistake clinical anxiety or depression for someone being excessively emotional. It is a medical disorder of the brain that causes it to malfunction. My ending statement is a bit hyperbolic, but not really: dismissing a mental health disorder as emotions is how people end up dead.

This is not true. Anxiety is an emotion. And in a close relationship there is a lot of transference going on. Often avoidance (key behavior with anxiety) is leading to game playing. Emotions you feel, you now as a partner have to deal with. First of all identifying them as not of your own. Just imagine waking up, your partner feeling ill and fearing for their life. You feel some fear too. And that is without even stepping into the wonderland of personalty disorders.

Anxiety can reach a level where it strongly impacts behavior and thinking. A lot of the schools of therapy of mental health therapy (particularly the cognitive-behavioral ones) are built on the interplay of strong emotions and thinking.

If it is all a physical brain problem then outside life events should not be able to trigger it so easily. There is a feeling-thinking-feeling connection and it seems there are often unfortunate persistent feedback mechanisms too. Especially emotional connected mental health issues are reachable these days with targeted psycho-therapy.

For a partner it can be vital to seek out professional support for themselves even or especially if the person with anxiety is not in therapy. As a rule of thumb the healthier partner often seeks help first.

Calling emotions emotions is not dismissing it. Mental health is a general label, emotions is a more specific label and anxiety an even more specific one. The more careful we describe the better we can tackle it. Emotions and in particular overwhelming anxiety needs to be taken very serious. This stuff can kill, that I agree with.

As somebody who overcame a different but similarly awful mental illness (addiction to strong opiates, mainly heroin and opium), I can't even begin to pretend I understand what people with anxiety issues are going through. But I know I've been at a point where I thought I would just pack it in, just go into a forest in winter and freeze to death. Didn't obviously and am unbelievably glad I didn't.

You know the generic tips. Get help, believe in change, keep trying. I'm not sure I want to reiterate that because none of these things were what helped me. It was a close friend, somebody I can genuinely say saved my life. And there's what imagine to be the worst problem with generalized anxiety: not easily being able to ask others for help.

Believe me, it wasn't easy for me either. But if social interaction scares you, if going out of the door is an impossibility? Man, I have no idea whatsoever how that could be improved.

Still, and this is vital, giving up for good is never the answer. I was jamming two grams of morphine per day into my veins five years ago, barely still literate and pretty much waiting for death. Back to working, back to a social and romantic life, back to... feeling good. Sober. And I'm neither stronger nor cleverer nor better than anyone else, not by a long shot.

Anxiety disorder just sucks, because there's no way to rationalize it or the depression that often engenders.

It's fortunate that this couple were able to figure out what was happening and can now talk about this openly. Normalizing the open discussion of mental illness is key to helping so many people who currently suffer in silence.

There is a nonprofit initiative in the tech world which encourages open discussion for this purpose: Open Sourcing Mental Illness [1]. I've been privileged to share my story of Generalized Anxiety Disorder with tech audiences in the run-up to this being launched, and I've heard so many humbling stories from others. It is having a positive impact, and I hope others will see the initiative or the presentations and feel that they can discuss what's happening with them or make it clear that others should feel okay to talk about their experiences.

Above all: if you are in pain, in worry, in doubt, etc., please reach out for help. The difference between silent suffering and a life enjoyed can start there.

[1]: https://osmihelp.org/

You said there's no way to rationalize it, but it depends on the person. For some becoming more mindful allows you to see bad mental habits that may contribute to the anxiety. Once you are mindful of these you are empowered to change them.

There might be something that you can do - probiotics. There has been research that the microbiome is at least somehow linked to anxiety [1].

Not just any probiotic - there's a lot of unresearched crap being sold, some even dangerous (e.g. some soil based organisms can become opportunistic). I can recommend L. Plantarum 299v (this strain reportedly does not produce d-lactic acid, which is really desirable, as probiotic use could lead to acidosis [2], [3]), E. Coli Nissle 1917, and maybe a well researched soil-based mix (Prescript Assist maybe, they claim that it's the best researched probiotic in its class). Testing your biome at ubiome could provide you with info on what is missing, or what group of organisms is underrepresented. I haven't tried that yet though.

Sorry for not providing links to studies for all my claims, as I'm not at home, but all that should be easy to back up by searching at pubmed.

[1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23384445/

[2]: https://med.virginia.edu/ginutrition/wp-content/uploads/site...

[3]: http://hkjpaed.org/pdf/2006%3B11%3B246-254.pdf

Update: Added another link. Why the downvote?

I suspect you have been downvoted because some people may perceive your answer as a glib trivialization of a debilitating condition ('just pop a few probiotics and everything will be ok').

However, I have upvoted you because I agree that probiotics can play a part in coping with anxiety for some people.

I have experienced anxiety attacks for the last several years (including several full on panic attacks). For several years before the onset of the anxiety episodes I have also had IBS like symptoms (which continue to this day). I have noticed a clear link between the two (anxiety accompanied by nausea and frequent trips to the toilet). I could go into the disgusting detail but I won't.

To cut a long story short, I have found that consumption of high dose probiotics containing B longum has corresponded with a decline in sympton severity & frequency [1]. I am not suggesting that this is a cure (or that it will help all anxiety sufferers). Other things that help are reductions in caffeine & alcohol intake, increased exercise (the more extreme the better) and acceptance of the physiological symptoms of anxiety - it is easy to think that heart palpatations etc caused by anxiety are a result of genuine physiolgical issues (which in turn causes more anxiety).

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Lalonde/publicat...

It's actually unfortunately normal and healthy to have extreme anxiety when you have no workers rights and its hard to replace a job. As working people we are forced to live with unprecedented levels of uncertainty. Life can be extremely punishing, I've seen both the mediocre and the extremely talented crushed beneath the wheels of the system sometimes seemingly at random. Abuse if the h1b creates artificial shortages of work to leverage wages down and hours up. It's not unusual to get used more and more as short term temporary labor the more experienced and capable you get. Other professions like teaching college pay poverty wages that cannot support a family. So much of the dignity of work has been annihilated to make things better for billionaires.

Most billionaires make most of their money through stocks, so why not invest in those companies and make good money [if things are becoming better for billionaires].

I have holes in a few of my clothes.

Today I went to a shop selling needles/yarn/wool/.., so I could fix them. I arrived at the shop, was too anxious to enter and left again.

Guess the holes will have to stay.

What sort of things would you do if one day you manage to overcome anxiety?

I just want to stay at home programming, so it does not matter much

ok, then you wont overcome social anxiety unless youn find a compelling reason to do so.

You're still doing than a lot of people, sometimes myself included. Just keep trying, baby steps.

I have done something similar. Go to the mall because I need clothes, walk in the door, do a lap around the store, walk out and go home. I know it is ridiculous but in my head it just feels like everyone is watching me, judging me based on what I am looking at. So I just don't even look at anything. I know that isn't true when I'm sitting at home but the second I arrive the anxiety kicks into high gear. It is very frustrating sometimes. I've noticed that I don't seem to get so anxious when grocery shopping or shopping for something I know a little about. Clothing is just so out of my element that I feel like a fool and have a hard time relaxing.

It gets easier. But unfortunately it's not just a matter of putting yourself in the situations more (you'll just get accustomed to how you feel so it won't get you down as much, but you'll still feel anxious and leave).

2 things helped me a lot: mindfulness (I read "A New Earth", YMMV) and the book "Learned Optimism". I can't recommend that book enough. Doesn't sound like it has anything to do with anxiety, but it really does. Anxiety can come from a pessimistic outlook - the stories you make up for the things that go on around you that you don't have all the information on. For example, you say "it just feels like everyone is watching me". This most likely triggers thoughts like "everyone thinks I'm uncool" or "I must look so out of place" or "I'm so unattractive" etc. which makes you anxious about staying there, so you leave. And there begins the spiral or rabbit hole to debilitating anxiety, depression or feelings of worthlessness.

"Learned Optimism" is all about changing the stories you tell yourself about these situations, to nip those thoughts in the bud. There's a definite pattern to them, and it can be broken quite easily. I won't do it justice to try and explain it here, it's really best to read the book from the start and let it do the talking. Oh and check out this out: https://github.com/raganwald/presentations/blob/master/optim...

I think you hit the nail on the head about the outlook and made up stories stuff. Those do sound almost exactly like what I experience. Thank you for the comment, I'll check out the suggestions you made.

On the other hand, I would have a hard time leaving the shop without buying something.

They might think you want to steal something and watch you closely. That makes it even more stressful

You're describing me. I've always had an extremely hard time buying clothes or shoes because of that. It'd take me many years to actually go and do it, only when I really really needed it. One day I had to do it and I was so nervous while doing it that the salesgirl I was using stolen checks to do so.

I've mostly overcome it in some strange ways. I moved to another country, with a foreign language, and as a result I knew EVERYTHING I did would be severely judged one way or the other, and I would be "doing it wrong". Somehow that made my brain go all "Ah fuck it" mode so today I don't care anymore (for the most part). I just kinda get inside the store and play a role of someone who's buying clothes. I still have moments when I am unable to gather the energy to do it, but I know I can if I put myself into it.

Well damn, I did the exact same thing. But I still need to be well rested if I'm buying clothes or the anxiety might kick right back in. Sometimes it helps just sitting down and having a drink.

Hey, this is me as well. Just keep going and eventually the anxiety wears off and you can actually look at clothes. I am sorry :-(

What steps have you taken so far to try to treat your anxiety?

>We also made big and brave decisions like my wife quitting her exhausting job up in London and her retraining to work with young people in a college environment — stressful, but local.

Looks like now that guy is mainly responsible for all the stress and anxiety of mortgage and family finances. Brave decision indeed, at least form his side, hope he doesn't catch that horrible illness too.

There is some evidence that women are quitting due to high stress environment of modern workplaces[1]. Given this instantly solved the issue in this particular case, safe to assume it was the root cause of anxiety , and that's what "solved" it, not talking, therapy and all the other stuff.

>We also got a cat.

I strongly recommend this also. Cats will show you how to chill, how to find that sunspot and enjoy life. They will instantly de-stress you with their chill vibe.

Edit: de-stress != distress.

1. http://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/organization/our-...

I think you may have meant de-stress, rather than "They will instantly distress you with their chill vibe.", as amusing as the idea of recommending cats to instantly send people into distress is!

oops. you are right. thank you.

> Brave decision indeed, at least form his side, hope he doesn't catch that horrible illness too.

Why is it a brave decision? Do you actually think anxiety disorder is an infectious disease?

Do you think anxiety disorder is genetic and can't be acquired from one's circumstances and environment, an environment that includes someone demonstrating how to be anxious?

So, you are addressing the old, often challenging issue of separating nature and nurture.

Well, suppose a mother has genetic anxiety disease and consider her daughter: Then the daughter likely has anxiety disease from both nature and nurture, that is, from both her mother's genes and her mother's behavior.

E.g., both the mother and daughter can have social phobia and, then, commonly, when planning the social aspects of a trip to the grocery store have her brain burn glucose at a faster rate than anyone has yet thinking about, say, general relativity or P = NP. E.g., when making salad dressing, don't use wine vinegar because wine on the label that might generate rumors in the community, school board, and church that the woman is an alcoholic -- it wish that was a joke or exaggeration, but it wasn't .

As in David Shapiro, Neurotic Styles, the standard neurotic behaviors are hysteria (my description -- over reacting, i.e., volume level too high), paranoia (i.e., threat detector too sensitive; false alarm rate too high), obsessive behavior (can't stop thinking about something), compulsive behavior (can't stop doing something), psychopathic passive behavior (volume level set too low?). The parenthetic descriptions are mine, and I'm no expert.

Obsessive and compulsive often go together and called OCD -- obsessive/compulsive disorder.

Well such neurotic behavior is commonly a case of anxiety.

Some experts claim that it is known that talk therapy doesn't work for OCD.

As in David V. Sheehan, M.D., The Anxiety Disease, even quite broadly across cultures, anxiety disease is four times more common in human females than human males. Then the author conjectures that a disease so pervasive, even one so harmful, must have some reproductive advantage.

To have a hint on just why so "pervasive", it is accepted that dogs can have OCD. So, the common ancestor with OCD went way, WAY back!

Of course, if we want to believe Sheehan on "reproductive advantage" and if we are willing to be politically incorrect and not gender neutral, then the obvious guess is that a woman with anxiety disease is more highly motivated to seek a man and a marriage with him, stay in the home of the marriage and not leave, be emotionally dependent on and physically close to her husband, become a mother, and be devoted to her children.

Then, once we start to believe this scenario, pattern, whatever, e.g., "A woman's place is in the home, barefoot, pregnant, dependent, chained to the stove.", etc., along comes more: Some experts believe that women with anxiety disease do not make good mothers, that is, there would be no "reproductive advantage". So, right, we have a contradiction. So, again right, we don't yet really understand. Right, we are stumbling around in the dark.

I'm not an expert, but I (A) have to question how much even the experts know about this subject and (B) have considered much more about this subject than I ever wanted to because my (late) wife had one heck of a case of anxiety disease, OCD, and clinical depression. To understand better how to help her, I got tutorials from several experts; it appeared that I learned a lot; it was certain I didn't learn enough.

It was also certain that the last medical experts who treated her didn't know enough either. Most definitely, in her case, anxiety disease did not have anything like reproductive advantage.

> Given this instantly solved the issue

This is the second time in these comments that you've insisted the change solved the issue. Elsewhere you said[1]:

> Cause of anxiety was wanting to live a lifestyle and not wanting to work a stressful job. Marriage and "permission" to quit solved the issue immediately.

Those were not the cause of her anxiety, and those changes did not solve the issue — they made her symptoms less expressive. He writes as much: "She still has anxiety, and I imagine she always will."

Your speak of severe anxiety like it's a minor bout with "the sads" that can be "solved". He's not talking about the common stresses you and I face daily. It's not multiple discrete episodes. Her anxiety defines much of their life, and even when it's not active, it's ready to be.

If the above quote represents your experience with this condition, I imagine the OP was written for you.

1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13039162

Thanks for sharing. I think its important to discuss mental health issues openly. They have a huge impact on our lives and are quite common (NAMI says 1 in 5), yet we tend as a society to shy away from talking about it and tend to have strange beliefs (they are just a negative person, they should just get over it, their thoughts will be contagious). I think many people never get the help they need because they aren't aware that help even exists.

But a depressed person often is a negative person, and moods can spread. Think about working for a boss who is miserable and passes that feeling down onto people who work for her. If that boss goes to to a psychiatrist/therapist because she is having trouble getting along with the people in her life, that psychiatrist/therapist will likely say she depressed, never diagnose her as being a "negative person" which is also a true assessment, and how people working with her would describe her.

I'm happy to be open about mental health issues. I have had enough negative experiences with, and read broadly enough about the theory behind psychotherapy to have come to my own conclusion that it makes about as sense as most dogmatic religions (very little).

>But a depressed person often is a negative person, and moods can spread.

That's pretty stereotypical. The happiest people on the outside can hide some pretty dark clouds on the inside; especially in a work environment where outward appearances are important. In fact, I would suggest that the majority that are depressed don't show any outwards signs to working colleagues.

I'm in the Robin Williams category of depressives. I know how desperate and tiring it is fighting off those causeless bouts, and so I try to make life as enriching as I can for people around me.

It's my way of compensating for every relentless, hammering, baseless urge to die that I've survived alone over the years. It took a long time for me to get that people don't typically understand that it's more like hiding that you have cancer than not being able to cheer up. You can hide the symptoms of both, you don't ask for either of them, and they might both kill you, but somehow you're responsible when you get depression but not cancer.

We can be responsible for our depressions though. The CBT paradigm is that thoughts cause emotions, and if we change our thoughts (which we can have control over) our mood will shift. So there is some self-determination, I don't think the typical comparison with cancer is a good one. (Obviously you can give yourself cancer with behaviors like smoking, but once you have cancer you have little internal control to make it go away. Not so with depression.)

Absolutely, but I can almost guarantee you the person who presents as anxious/tortured wreck is not secretly beaming with contentment inside.

As is well known among people who study anxiety, commonly anxiety leads to stress, stress leads to depression, the depression may cause problems, e.g., in career, that leads to more stress and, thus, more depression and eventually clinical depression which is dangerous as in fatal from suicide. Then, for the depression it has been common to give some pills that, bummer, increase the chances of suicide.

> More evenings with no sleep, coupled with a 4 hour commute (both ways) means she is exhausted.

This stood out to me - I cannot imagine the detrimental effect that 8 hours commuting per day has on one's mental health. I'm glad she was able to change jobs.

I think it would say "each way" if it totaled to 8. "Both ways" suggests to me that it's cumulative.

That would be impossible. I understood 4h total.

Oh, there are people forced to endure such commutes. For what it's worth, some school and university mates had 2-hour-plus one-way commutes.

Now add in the usual stuff like people throwing themselves in front of a train (happened quite often to those whose train passed by a mental health institution), random technology breakdowns (some parts of Munich S-Bahn operate on a single rail for both directions, it gets nasty when something happens), cops/paramedics attending to people on the train, idiots blocking the train doors and causing delays, car drivers too stupid to see the tramway approaching (and only waking up once the tram crashes into their car, blocking the single tram to the university)... the delay record, I believe, was something like six hours total what should have been 2,5h.

And those affected most by long commutes and the "random" (aka daily) service interruptions usually were those with not as much money as the rest - because living as a student in Munich is expensive as ... and many poorer students had to live in the hinterland of Munich with a bus driving only 4x a day or not at all, and because it's easy to hail a cab and say "ok, f..k that delay, I'm getting out, here's 50€ to get me to university" if you have the money.

It's worth noting that if you have anxiety around starting therapy, as I did, that many therapists can be contacted via email. In the US, there are trade publications like Psychology Today and trade groups like the American Psychological Association that maintain lists of practicing therapists.

Often the hardest step is the first one. If your anxiety is anything like mine is you may not even realize you have a problem. My anxiety has robbed me of so many opportunities, that I often wish I had started therapy in my twenties. It took me months of goading myself before I contacted anyone about it.

I'm glad I did.

Keep in mind that chronic anxiety is often the flip side of other, highly positive traits -- like empathy; the capacity to be deeply committed to others and one's goals; and self-knowledge, generally -- which many seemingly "relaxed, self-assured" people sorely lack.

A lifetime of anxiety usually results in the sufferer developing a set of coping mechanisms that are typically not healthy, and can include drug use, raging, cutting, seclusion, social restriction or other self-harm.

One possible line of therapy is Dielectical Behavior Therapy[1], which works to teach the sufferer to re-cast their emotional responses to daily events, see them more objectively and find healthy coping methods.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_behavior_therapy

Social anxiety seems to be really common for anxious people. I'm quite anxious, but I have no social anxiety. I have medical anxiety, like hypochondria. I was able to fix this by being really logical about it. Ie. if I was anxious I was having a stroke or something I would list the symptoms (fainting, paralysis, blurred vision, extreme nausea etc.) and tick off the ones I had (I invariably didnt have any of them, so I determined I was fine)

Fine, except when you do actually get some symptoms for some serious medical problem, it gets important to get to an appropriate physician who usually, easily can do a much more accurate diagnosis.

E.g., as a child I had middle ear infections from congestion. So, recently I had some congestion and wondered if I was on the way to an ear infection. Okay, on a visit to a general practice physician for something else, I mentioned the ear issue, and right away the physician (A) too my temperature and (B) looked into my ear. Fast diagnosis: I was fine.

And an appropriate physician has a huge list of much more powerful diagnostic tests.

Net: If you have some symptoms at the level of loss of sleep, lack of appetite, tired feeling, sore joint, etc., don't worry and, instead, go to an appropriate physician and get checked out.

If you still worry, then take notes with dates and continue monitoring and checking until get some resolution. The continuing notes may help you and/or the physician.

Thanks for sharing. I think it's so important that this gets surfaced.

Having dialogue is probably the best way to help someone going through anxiety. A lot of times, they just need someone to listen and to support them and tell them that it's ok.

anxiety == trauma

1. After 6 months - 1 year it becomes part of you. You can't get any better without a professional help.

2. Go find the best psychiatrist (not therapist) your money can buy and trust him 100%.

3. Therapy and medicine can make miracles! You can become another person better than ever! Free from your worst fears forever.

4. Be patient. Therapy need 2-3 year or even more. But with the appropriate medicine you can keep your life going.

5. Medicine made to help people. All the other excuses are bullshit. But WARNING! Medicine doesn't make you better. It just hides the symptoms. Therapy will make you better. Therapy will give you the explanation and the self-cure.

6. No-one EVER EVER died from anxiety. Someday your will just have fun with all these symptoms. Just trust your doctor.

7. Read Echart Tolle. Maybe meditation is not the answer but he can teach you the meaning of life. Mindfulness is a great tool. Learn what you are thinking!

8. Psychiatry is the only science. The others are just philosophies.

9. Are you still here? Stop crying for your money and give them to your doctor! It's really a huge investment. Be absolutely sure that life will give them back multiplied. Remember that money is the medium.

10. DONT QUIT YOUR JOB. DONT QUIT ANYTHING. Anxiety == trauma!

Me? After spending 5 years with all the pseudo-cures and pseudo-doctors even with homeopathy and other crap like this I decided to start with the best doctor I could find. 2.5 years of a great journey. Feeling great and I am in the process of quitting therapy.

Keep up, and be strong!

Sometimes anxiety is a symptom of high-functioning autism spectrum. (Note that anxiety doesn't need to be solely related to social situations in this case either) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3809000/

I wonder if your wife ever tried medical marijuana? Many people use it to battle anxiety and in fact anxiety reduction is one of the effects, websites like Leafly rate cannabis strains in. Cannabis aids sleep, so this might also be some desired effect for your wife.

Search for anxiety in reddit.com/r/trees and you'll see the amount of people who think it helps them.

I have no doubt that marijuana helps a great many people with their anxiety issues, but I recommend caution if you've never tried it before. Search for marijuana/weed in r/anxiety and you'll find many people that think marijuana made their anxiety worse, or caused it to manifest after a bad session.

As somebody that was diagnosed with a generalized anxiety disorder a couple of years ago, I've personally never tried it to see what the effect would be for me. Exercise, being honest about it with my spouse, and a "goal-oriented life" has been crucial to beating my own anxiety, so much so that it rarely affects my life anymore. In fact, most days I don't even think about it, which would have been hard to believe when it was at its worst after first being diagnosed.

Just to be clear, I'm not against using marijuana at all. If it helps your anxiety, great! I only write this as someone that frequents r/anxiety and has witnessed people there writing about both the good and the bad of marijuana.

Hi All,

I thought I'd share my experience as someone who has been through anxiety and come through the other side. I was very lucky to have (and still have) a fantastic therapist to help and teach me.

Why we get anxiety:

I sure know how confusing anxiety can be! It doesn't feel like it comes from anywhere clear or that it has an obvious purpose... but in fact is is strangely systematic.

Anxiety does two things (we will explore both in detail); 1) protects you from something. 2) makes you feel shit and forces you to act on making yourself feel less shit.

>> 1) Protecting you

Anxiety is one of the mind’s best defense mechanisms. Whatever you experience anxiety about it nearly always leads to a reduction in action, connection and conflict with others. It could be that you don’t speak out, get on stage, tell someone you're pissed off with them, leave your room (as someone in this thread is having a hard time doing) or go to your friends house for dinner (re op). Anxiety = not doing things.

Not doing things is a fantastic option if you just want to survive! I’m fairly sure if I spent the day in my bedroom and had a pizza posted through my letterbox I would make it through the next 24 hours fairly unscathed, and a part of me thinks that is a very smart idea. It’s very good to stay alive.

The confusing thing about being an adult with anxiety is that we are protecting ourselves from things that we don’t need protecting from any more.

Being young:

When you are small (under 10 or so) there are a few big differences from being an adult.

1) You really really need to keep big people (parents) around. You are genuinely very vulnerable when you are little. A five year old is not very good at making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, it’s extremely important to have someone (a parent) there to help. A nine year old is not very good at defending itself vs a 32 year old bodybuilder, a big person (parent) is an extremely important tool for protection. If they are not there, you really could die.

2) You feel like you control / are responsible for more than you are. It is hard to understand that you are growing up into an imperfect world where, despite you being good, bad things are happening. It can be common, and often easier, for a child to feel that the world is good, but it has been bad so bad things have happened. The child has more control that way.

These two things combined mean that unlucky children teach themselves very strong and very misguided lessons at at young age. I lost my father at eight and I certainly did.

There is often a traumatic event - a divorce, violence, a huge argument, a death - that results in one parent / carer leaving, or almost leaving, the family hub. As discussed above, the love of the ‘big people’ is genuinely indispensable to a child. If you don’t have big people love, you probably will die and death is very scary.

The child finds a way to blame this on itself. It must have done something wrong for this loss, or almost-loss, to have happened and it must not do it again! Toe the line. Keep everyone happy. YOU MUST KEEP THEM HAPPY OTHERWISE YOU COULD DIE. This is a very sensible narrative for a young child that has been through a trauma.

Being older:

Now that you are older two things have happened.

The first is that, if you’re lucky, you don’t need the help of any big people to make it through the day. You can make a p&j sandwich on your own! You can survive loss. It will make you sad but it will not kill you.

The second is that you can be more objective. If you’re parents get divorced when you are 25 years old, you are more likely to see it is because your dad’s train watching hobby is just out of hand, rather than it being a reflection on who you are as a person.

But your anxiety was not taught to you when you were a grown up, it was taught to you when you were a child - so it makes no sense in the world of an adult. You don’t need to be (that) scared of pissing someone off as an adult! You don’t need to be (that) scared of someone you love leaving you as an adult. You will make it through. But your emotions connect you to the perspective you had when you were a child - if you piss people off, if someone leave you - you could die. No wonder you are feeling anxious! I would be (and was) too.

Pissing people off, or having them leave you, or saying something offensive, or not making EVERYONE happy - can happen quite easily in the adult world. It can happen at the shop, at work, at a party, in a relationship. These are normal activities that you probably will survive - but they appear very very scary to a person with anxiety because these activities are more than what they are. They are opportunities for the world to fall apart and for you to maybe die.

>> 2) Anxiety makes you feel shit and makes you do something to try and feel less shit

As I hope you have learnt so far, the strong feelings of anxiety that one can have do not come from a very logical (grownup) place. They are beliefs that were useful when you were young and felt like you were holding the world together, but don’t make sense any more.

(Note: if your anxiety seems to have popped up from nowhere after years of being fine, it could be that you have touched an emotional depth that you have not since you were young. For example, my anxiety flares up when I’m in a relationship and experiencing strong feelings of connection / love - as a child might with a parent.)

The whole brain is really a very clever thing. Much cleverer than the bit of the brain you spend your mind talking to. As odd as it sounds, a part of it knows that you have a belief that is a little out of place and causing you problems in your day to day life - and it wants you to fix it.

I’m willing to bet if you have strong feelings of anxiety you are having frequent, intense, and mostly unpleasant dreams. I’d bet you’ve even had some recurring dreams. Dreams are another weirdly systematic process which can seem complex, but not to be discussed today (my email is below if you want a walk through). These dreams are no meaningless coincidence, they are there to nudge you towards fixing whatever no-longer-useful belief you have.

Like I said, the whole brain is really very clever and it knows a great way to make you take notice of something is to cause you immense pain! (Just like it is useful for a rash to itch, so you see you have it and take care of your skin.) And just like the synergistic of a bee and a flower (the bee gets the food, the flower gets its pollen spread), anxiety protects you and, through its pain, forces you to take a look at yourself.

So that is what’s going on. (Apologies if you feel this is an oversimplification, but this structure covers the common narrative. I’m sure there are many cases I’m not dealing with.)

How to face anxiety:

To face it, you need to say - “Hello child brain, I see what you’re doing - you really are very smart! But today I’m not going to listen to you because I probably don’t need protecting from whatever you’re trying to prevent. I’ll probably be ok”

Then you’re child (emotional) brain will say - “WHAT THE FUCK!! WE’RE TOTALLY GOING TO DIE!!!”

And then you are going to have to use all the courage you can muster to tell it to shut up and do the thing you are so scared of doing. And see what happens (your child brain will be watching too) - you’ll probably be fine. When you’ve done this a few times the child brain will calm down and you’ll move through this anxiety… onto the next one!

Also, if you can, get a good therapist.

If this was helpful / you want to reach out - please do so at eichler.summers[at]gmail.com. I’d be interested to hear feedback.

If you are from YC, or a particularly kind rich person / VC and you think there should be a scalable solution to anxiety, please get in touch. I would love to start a company in this space. I am a credible (TechCrunch Disrupt nominated, ex VC) individual who just needs a nudge.

I am neither from YC or a rich person but I strongly believe in helping people get over these issues and I am interested in learning more about what you're thinking about.

For me, I do think that there should be a scalable solution but I also think that the solution should involve more connectedness with the human side of people. Something along the lines of building a network of support like AA but on a grander scale.

Yes - I agree. I think people will always be part of the process of moving through things. It needs to be included in the thing that scales!

I've had some brief (thankfully) periods of anxiety. Thought I'd add my experience to the pool here for completeness.

Most of your description feels familiar but there were some interesting nuances.

There were certainly situations, especially involving other people, that would trigger rather strong anxiety attacks. Sudden tunnelvision and extremely strong urge to get out of the situation. At the time I had no clue whatsoever why I would suddenly have this reactions. Years later reflecting on it I have realised it was probably only because the people, or situations, simply worked as reminders of things that I was subconsciously scared of. I imagine PTSD sufferers experience something similar when specific sounds, or smells, can be a trigger.

But there were also other attacks that were much, much worse. These times I was completely overwhelmed. My sense of self and reality would be gone, I was convinced that that the only thing keeping reality together at all was my mind, and if I didn't hold on and fight back I would reach a point were it all would simply dissolve, or lose cohesion somehow. I could do nothing at all but lie in my bed and try to hold on. Any sensory experience at all was unbearable, sound, sight, touch, I just desperately needed everything cut of to avoid overload.

I remember how my (now) wife would try to comfort me, gently stroking my hair as I was lying there curled up on the bed and even that simple sensation was too much for me to handle. How utterly helpless she must have felt.

In any case, this lasted for a few weeks as I recall it, and basically stopped entirely once was I was ready to seek help and learned that there is such as thing as panic attack. I guess just knowing it was a thing was enough to break a negative feedback loop.

Years later reflecting on it I'm thinking that the main contributor to these episodes was simply growing pains. I was twenty something at the time, probably going through both physiological, as well as psychological changes and things were just unstable during the transition. I think the periods also correlates with jumps in belief systems.

While I've always been "open minded" and kind of accepted both atheistic as well as christian beliefs as plausible, I was busy making room for both buddhistic and some decidedly occult narratives. I guess foundational refactoring like that would cause some temporary distress.

In summary, I guess I just wanted to say few things.

For those lacking the experience of true panic attack: It can be pretty bad, way beyond a state where "do the thing you are so scared of doing" even makes sense to talk about.

For those suffering from it now: Perhaps it helps to know that it's not just you, and one day it might be just an enriching experience you went through

And for those trying to treat it: Perhaps CBT is not the right tool to approach it in all cases, if the underlying issue really is subconscious conflicts there may be other ways to help with resolving/integrating them.

hey, I'm not from YC nor am I rich, but we have recently founded a startup (www.spring.care) developing tools that help depressed patients identify the best antidepressant for them. I'd love to do something similar for Anxiety, or help you do it yourself. feel free to reach out to us through the website

Do you only recommend prescription drugs? I'm asking because dietary supplements have reportedly also worked for mood disorders. See e.g. the book of Julia Ross, "The Mood Cure".

I've been in that position, shaking in my bed not able to sleep for days. Then I was prescribed many different medications. I ended up doing seroquel and now I'm trying to tamper off it. However in my situation I still have no idea what caused my anxiety. I'm unemployed and don't need to work, and everything seems alright on the surface to me.

I like how this follows a more pratical approach than other writing about mental health. Overly emotional mental health literature is a big turn off for me.

Thank you for this.

I overcame Bipolar Spectrum disorder. This article, and many others like it, get many things right. Each person is different, and it took me many, many years to get the right help and many, many different approaches.

I'd like to add another aspect to this discussion that might be misunderstood, but I'll say it anyway because there are likely others that were in the same situation I was. I attended a church back in my 20's that turned out to be a horrible environment for me. Churches are not all the same. They are multifaceted, not monolithic. I was at this church for 10 years, and the environment was very emotional. They even had services on Wednesday nights because of the hype and emotion.

When I became sick, I had pastors pray for me and ask God for healing. When the months went by and I was not getting better, the not-so-subtle message was "there must be sin in your life" or that I needed deliverance from some sort of demonic influence. People stopped visiting. I felt like a social leper. It was one of the darkest points in my life.

After 7 months of suffering crushing depression, daily anxiety and frequent panic attacks, I was reduced to working a part-time job and eating only sandwiches from the gas station next door because I didn't want to be out in public. I could share the remainder of the story, but the point I want to make is I got through it.

There are many, many communities of faith out there. Some are fantastic and very understanding of mental health issues. Others are toxic and horrible. If you're in a similar situation, I just want to let you know three things: 1) There is hope 2) Don't give up 3) If you need to make a change (church, family, friends, etc) do it.

There are many wonderful, loving people in the world who really do care and REALLY DO understand what you are going through. You really are not alone. I know how it feels to think you're the only one going through what you are going through, but the truth is you are not. I still remember being in my first mental health group of about 10 people and hearing people share their stories. What a relief it was to know I was not alone! Some of the biggest laughs I've had in my life have been with other "crazy" people, because we all know how hard mental illness can be, and how wonderful life can be when things are simply normal without all the drama.

I'm now married over 16 years, with two children and two very spoiled pugs. I've also been attending a great church for the last 6 years that is more balanced, without all the ups and downs emotionally. I've shared my story many times about overcoming a serious mental illness and will continue to do so. Mental illness is more cruel than most people will ever realize, so if you suspect you have something or know you get help, and surround yourself with positive, encouraging people.

I had to deal with something similar, and I think I would add a few practical advices (outside of my other advice):

- if psychotherapy does now work in first 3 months, than problem is somewhere else

- check sugar levels, diabetes.. it is often misdiagnosed with psychiatric problems

- if she has paralyzing fear, you should talk to good psychiatrist and get medication. Be careful what motivations he/she has, he might try to sell you expensive doses for long term.

- we had good experience with psychiatrist outside US. Most consulting was over skype

- MRI, blood test... usual general tests. Anxiety can be result of infection, head concussion...

- Phenibut is quick & cheap solution to anxiety and sleep problems. No side effects, but you develop resistance fast, so it can be used only once a week. It takes edge-off before proper solution is found.

> Phenibut [...] No side effects

Severe withdrawal symptoms are not uncommon. Reports are easy to find with google.

Yes. The problem is you go back to zero sleep and anxiety. If you can solve sleep some other way, there are no withdrawal symptoms.

Problem with this is that it 1) works, 2) resistance is developed fast 3) you are back to square zero very soon. So it has to be taken in small doses with long intervals, when anxiety is at its worse.

It is not addictive as other drugs, most countries even sell it without prescription.

This is moronic.

- Psychotherapy can take years to work. Three months is nothing.

- What in the fuck?

- lol yeah sedate your spouse. Careful you don't get ripped off! Mother's little helper should be cheap.

- get your prescriptions from a black-market psychiatrist. nothing could go wrong.

- has this ever worked

- It's not; it's highly addictive and very likely causes brain damage with regular use -- like every other pharmaceutical in its clade.

I was married to such person for 8 years. I physically aged 40 years, and I got gray hair.

My best advice is to get out NOW if you can. Maybe things are working out now, but you are barely floating. Add normal family life into picture: children, job loss, some injury, any sort of accident... and you will sink to bottom faster than a stone.

Not sure why you are being downvoted. It may seem crass, but it is true. In the last 6-7 years I seem to have mentally and physically aged twice as much if not more. WE are still together but honestly, I don't think I can handle this much more to the point I'm getting depressed as well (suicide thoughts)

Is it worth it? Staying out of "obligation" or "guilt"?

Honestly, it isn't. But I'm waiting until I can sort somethings that are related to my kid so he doesn't have to suffer. After that, I think I'll be out, but until then, I need to 'put up' with it for his sake.

I see my wife as "family."

You don't abandon family.

Then again I'm Asian so perhaps our sense of family is different. For example, we often treat our cousins like siblings.

You should never make a blanket statement like "you don't abandon family." There are many situations where the best (and only) option is to get away. This includes both your spouse and your family. Abuse is one obvious example.

I'm not saying that we should run away at the first sign of mental health issues. I just think that there are plenty of situations where it might be the right decision. It's obvious in extreme cases, but the decision will always be extremely difficult.

For what it's worth, I think most people view their spouse as "family". It's hard to imagine a different arrangement.

I agree with you. My parents are very, very toxic people. I still see them a couple times a year but the best thing I ever did for myself was stop trying to have any kind relationships with them.

> I don't think I can handle this much more to the point I'm getting depressed as well (suicide thoughts)

I'd strongly suggest telling someone how you are feeling if you have not already. I've been there myself where my significant other was having physical health issues and I was just spent emotionally, physically and financially. That discussion with my spouse and family was a big turning point for all of us for the better.

I have, for the first time in 5 years, yesterday I opened up to someone with all of this. People around me know she has 'problems' but not what I'm going through or how I feel. As for my wife, we've talked about this many times, but due to her illness, even if she tries to take the load off my back, it just doesn't work and things go back to 'normal' in a few days. I rather have this so-so state even though I'm in pain and exhausted, but at least my son doesn't suffer for it than put more responsibility on her so I can get better and have my son be the victim of it.

That's good that you've reached out. I hope you work through it all for the better. I know it's easier said than done, but just remember to take care of yourself in whatever way that you can. Your wellbeing is always worth fighting for.

I upvoted you. Please do not downvote, if you have never been with someone who is seeking specialised help with anxiety issues. You simply don't realise the enormity of the problem.

I was with someone who had very very high anxiety issues. She also had ADHD and I'm sure some other disorders. She was on lexipro, lorazepam, clonazepam, diazepam, zoloft and other medications.

Thankfully I was with this person for just 1 year.

I was able to get out, but at such cost to my own mental health. Even after 6 years, I still don't have my own pieces together. It's like they say, once something has broken. You just can't put it back together the way it was.

> My best advice is to get out NOW

Best advice ever. You have my admiration if you are able to work it out and have an understanding partner. Unfortunately, I did not have an understanding partner. Even though, I moved heaven and earth to be there for her in every way, it just was not enough.

Although I should be saying, I hope she finds happiness. Except, I really feel bad for the guy she is with now. As her baggage is enormous. Instead, I hope she is getting the professional help she needs!

Gets better when she has an issue but does not admit it, and when he has an issue, he is just "inventing" it, because you know, men are privileged and can't have problems?

I am giving advice against starting family with someone, who can barely take care of themselves.

Consider the impact on the children of anxiety sufferers. If not successfully treated, they can suffer even more greatly than a spouse. Children are a source of anxiety even for healthy parents. If you're married to an abnormally anxious spouse, wait to have kids until/unless it is managed.

I'm married to someone with anxiety, and our now-adult daughter has anxiety issues far worse than her mother does. Mental health issues are biological and usually genetic in nature. Frankly, mental health is far worse in my own family than it is in my wife's family, so I suspect the issues our children face are genetically more my responsibility than hers.

As an extrovert, it's generally my role in the family to go deal with stuff for them and run interference socially. My wife often takes me to social functions just so I can hold the conversations for her. I know she needs it, so I do it.

I also have reason to believe that it's also related to one's upbringing.

That being said, I think you're doing a noble thing. By taking little steps to overcome these issues are the best way to get through the root cause.

I commend you for helping your wife with social functions. I am often extremely shy and socially inept and I think it would help me a lot if somebody took me by the hand and helped me through those situations. Most people have no sympathy for this problem "Just go out there and have fun" is really bad advice.

A friend of mine said something wonderfully complementary recently. She said I'm the kind of extrovert that makes introverts more comfortable, rather than less comfortable. That in itself is a very sensitive statement, distinguishing out the extroverts who treat introverts like doormats. :(

Not to say introversion and anxiety are the same thing. My daughter is actually pretty extroverted, as long as she feels comfortable and in control, but when her anxiety kicks in, she becomes painfully shy.

Not sure why you are being downvoted. Curious, was you wife working during these 8 years?

No, she was at home. I worked from home as well.

The first love of my life had severe depression. It was heartbreaking and awful. After we ended after 2 years (not directly due to the depression), I told myself that as much as I loved her, I would never allow myself to get in a relationship with someone like that again. It's too much.

The second love of my life had issues like anyone else, but the depression and anxiety didn't REALLY manifest themselves until a year into our marriage, after we were together for 6. I wanted to run. I wanted to quit. Not from the depression alone but because she refused to acknowledge a problem until it got REALLY bad. But she promised she would work on it, she promised we'd talk to a counsellor. I stayed. She went on anti-depressants. We talked to a counsellor. We got through it. Things got good again.

But they'll never be 100%. In the year since then, there have been 2 more dips. Each time, like the last, she refused to acknowledge a problem, I faced the decision "Well, either the person I love is a terrible person who I don't want to be with, or they're suffering from something, and I need to be there to help them." Each time she finally admitted a problem, and things got better. But she doesn't want to talk to a counsellor anymore. She's too stubborn, too independent, doesn't want to admit weakness. (Not because I would judge - I'm much more the empathetic and emotionally open of the two of us). So I don't expect us to be ever 100% again.

All this to say that I would give the exact same advice as you, thro32. If you still have the choice early, get out while you can.

The latest treatment protocols for anxiety seem to have shifted from GABA receptor agonists to SSRIs and supplements like folic acid[1].

The jury is still out on how effective these treatments are compared to CBT. I'd be curious about how physicians subjectively feel about prescribing benzos to their patients.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3200167/

Really glad this article was posted.

I have anxiety. No idea what to do about it. I just sit here locked in my apartment all day, haven't seen anyone in weeks. Moved a friend in next door, he's extremely loud, now I haven't seen him in weeks either. I just can't. I'm just an asshole sitting here with headphones on 14 hours a day and then sleeping completely locked in a prison of my own making. To walk into the kitchen and potentially hear them fucking or watching TV really loudly in their bedroom - it feels like what you're feeling is unreasonable, so then you start feeling guilty, except I can't help any of it. In my head it's like 'good for him! get laid buddy!' but what I feel is pure adrenaline and anger.

Sometimes when I wake up just right after a perfect sleep, hit my routine properly, get everything done, then I feel great, and can go out, and do things. But I have to feel extremely great, and it takes so much work to get there. And it only ever works rarely.

My heart rate is almost constantly 1.5x what it should be, like a consistent and constant adrenaline rush that no amount of pushups will get rid of. Any excessive or intrusive sounds sends my adrenaline to the roof and now I have to focus my energy on calming down to be able to work instead of actually working.

Very rarely there are small patches of time where there is no anxiety. I liken those moments to the moments Dostoevsky describes when he's not suffering from seizures.

The one thing I'm trying to avoid is telling people about it, I don't ever want to put someone in the position of "listen, my life is harder than yours because of X condition, so you need to adjust to me". I think that's gross. Like my loud friend. It's totally his right to be loud, and it's unfair to him that someone like me lives next door. But now he has to feel neglected from my lack of contact, which just brings me more guilt. Then at some point we're going to have to talk about it, at which point I can either lie to make him feel better or tell him what's actually up and potentially lower his quality of life and instill in him a similar amount of anxiety. Then we both lose. Pity is one of the worst feelings ever and I really don't wish to invite it into my life.

>All of these things helped but we were not living — we were surviving in a world where anxiety had taken over.

Exactly, it's just surviving. Dead time, unenjoyed. I am very lucky to have recently met a girl that takes the time to ask questions and explore and talk without judgement and assumptions and it's been the most wonderful experience of my life so far. I've never had that, so initially it was very difficult to trust. The first few months it was a mental loop of "Why would this person ever talk to me much less try to help me?". I lucked out huge though.

edit: Wow is what I'm typing really that foreign to some of you? I should probably look into this more. Thank you everyone who replied and OP for the article.

Everyone adjusts to somebody else - it's not gross at all :)

That's just every human relationship I've ever heard of.

It sounds like you're inside your head a lot - I'd suggest finding extremely simple activities you enjoy - like going for a walk 2x/day.

When you don't walk around outside and get some sun - you won't feel so good.

I've relatively recently moved from a busy downtown corner to a quiet place by a huge park - it's changed my life a great deal because I now enjoy going for my walks way more.

It's good that you've met a girl - that you think 'why would someone be nice to me?' is a sign of a great number of negative beliefs in your head, that are not true :)

People talk to other people because they're bored, you don't have to be good at anything to have someone pass the time by talking to you.

I hope you figure it out and again, small steps toward activities you enjoy, that involve being outside, and around small groups of people, would be my suggestions.

Yeah man thanks.

>People talk to other people because they're bored, you don't have to be good at anything to have someone pass the time by talking to you.

That's difficult to believe because it doesn't match up to my reality. I usually find I don't have much to talk to anyone about unless we're doing something like making music or exercising or whatever, which is impossible in my current state.

I agree about the sun and walks absolutely, I also need to move. Used to live in a condo with concrete walling where I couldn't hear a single neighbour ever, combined with living 30 floors above street level, it was basically heaven. Moved into a first floor place where the walls are paper thin. I hear everything. The business below me 9 hours a day, my friend, the 6 lane street about 15 meters to my left, and especially the sirens, oh god the sirens.

I think the girl, combined with moving back into a condo in a less busy area will do me heaps actually.

"I usually find I don't have much to talk to anyone about unless we're doing something..."

I very much understand this statement. I think that's why I don't have more social contact - nothing to say, really. I mean, I think a lot, but it doesn't seem to match up with the sorts of things people talk about. And honestly, my life isn't that interesting to talk about. I draw every day, for example, but I can't really talk about that and be interesting.

My spouse, though, I can talk to him for hours. About the world, about sillyness, about art. It works out, and he encourages me to do different things. He fills the place of your girl for me, I think, and reflecting on that:

I'm very happy you found at least one person to connect with. Much luck to you in your future, with all the hopes that it improves over the stuff you've had to deal with.

Exactly!

>"And honestly, my life isn't that interesting to talk about. I draw every day, for example, but I can't really talk about that and be interesting."

You can talk about it and be interesting, just it takes real work to talk about it and a real effort on the opposite side to listen and engage.

I can talk for hours about topic I'm super into, but at that point it feels like I'm talking at someone not with them. Unless they're equally or (ideally) more knowledgeable about the subject than me, or they genuinely just sprouted a passion for that thing and could listen to you all day (rare) but that's usually preceded with some variation of "hey man you're really good at x, can you teach me? I've always wanted to learn about x" which doesn't fall into the context of 'casual conversation', it will always be boring.

And thanks, I'm glad you have found someone as well!

I keep photos of my work on my phone. That's actually the easiest way to talk about it and be engaged. It just doesn't work with everyone :)

"I draw every day, for example, but I can't really talk about that and be interesting."

As in a similar situation as @rublev I feel I am, I think it helps to say that, as this thought is somewhat recurring, we expect our environment to tell us it's great what we do but that's a problem. Man if you enjoy drawing, do it, and if you want to talk about it, do it and if someone does not care, boy you may not care about him writing everyday too, but does this make you a bad person or a non interesting one? Don't expect others approval, be yourself.

Nah, it doesn't make me bad. Non-interesting to the right audience. I have my own work-around: I take photos of the art and keep both the photos and the links to my work handy. I show the pictures, and that sometimes leads to interesting conversation. I tend to take it traveling with me, and meet folks because of it.

The process? Not so interesting to most folks. That's actually ok, I just have the realization of the interest most folks have.

Sounds like this is a temporary hurdle for you - the living arrangement you have.

Regarding not having much to talk about - the more you are in your head, the more true this is :)

Conversations can be about information exchange, and that's where your current comfort level is it sounds like - because it's head-heavy.

There's another way of relating, which's emotion-based - but then if you're a dark cloud of 'life sucks', then of course you stick to intellectual conversations.

Most people put up an emotional wall but you don't have to - a buddy I know went to Japan for a few months, he came back a different person. Not only did he get out of his head while he was there, but now he had an intellectual topic to chat with strangers about - travelling and japan. It got him started on a path toward being able to relate emotionally.

The intellectual stuff gets old - the emotional keeps on giving. My path was making friends with a dude who liked to go out and have a drink, I found that once I got out of the house at least once a week, within a few months I had experiences to talk about, the 'hey have you been to X? My buddy's thinking of doing Y' - it snowballs, but you need to do a little work on yourself and your self esteem, to realize people gravitate towards positive energy and novel experiences - you do too, once you let go of some of the negative barriers you have.

Please see a doctor. It can seem like there is no way out, but a doctor can really help and help you find a better way to cope. Please.

> The one thing I'm trying to avoid is telling people about it, I don't ever want to put someone in the position of "listen, my life is harder than yours because of X condition, so you need to adjust to me". I think that's gross. Like my loud friend. It's totally his right to be loud, and it's unfair to him that someone like me lives next door

It's good that you're not asking him to adjust to you, but I hope you realise that you do not deserve to live like this, and that help might be available.

Have you seen a doctor?

There are some physical health checks they'll want to do, and then there are some mental health options they can talk about with you.

If you were in England you could expect this from the NHS: https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg113

Broader information: https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/conditions-and-diseases/men...

Anxiety disorders often respond well to treatment.

> There are some physical health checks they'll want to do

The importance of this step should not be underestimated. Hormonal and neurological phenomena can have huge effects on mental and emotional processes. It's socially accepted to joke about hormone-addled teenagers and "roid rage" (and, not so long ago, PMS), but then we act like the default is somehow to have no hormones at all, instead of admitting to ourselves that every one of our brains is marinating in a constantly-fluctuating chemical soup.

From someone who's been there - and occasionally starts to head back there - I offer sincere congratulations on (1) recognizing it and (2) speaking about it both here and to this new person in your life. That said, I cannot stress enough the value of a good counselor and possibly medication to help get things on a sustainable, healthy, enlivening course.

(For me it took some meds to help give myself mental space to begin forming healthy habits and ways of thinking. In case it helps: that first pill was literally the hardest thing I've ever had to swallow, because at the time I thought it meant that I couldn't fix myself. In retrospect I realize that choosing to take meds was in fact me taking control.)

Hey, I hope you do well in the future. It's hard to read this kind of stuff, but knowing this is how some people live makes me feel like I have nothing to complain about ever. I'm glad you have some good days. I share some of your anxieties and anger about other people, but probably to a much lesser extent. Thanks for sharing.

Those days you feel good and in control are the days your cortex is strong. You want to increase the strength of the inhibitory cortex and reduce the loudness of your screaming amygdala. I think you can do this over time, it just takes a lot of work, like you say.

Edit: Reading your other posts, your lifestyle sucks for health, no offense. You need to be eating to keep up blood sugar to your brain to keep your cortex going strong.

Man, shitty situation. I hope you can find some help, either from books or professionals or the internet or a spiritual practice or whatever, because that's no way to live and you deserve a better life and inner world.

One thing here did jump out at me: "... I can either lie to make him feel better or tell him what's actually up and potentially lower his quality of life and instill in him a similar amount of anxiety ..."

Talk to him. Assume he has good emotional boundaries, and can hear what you have to say without taking on your suffering. Your emotional state isn't his, and he may have quite a different reaction than you would in his shoes.

Good luck man.

Thanks. Also re: books. If you go through my comment history you'll find some good quotes by Glenn Gould that helped me with anxiety.

I understand you when you say "it's just surviving. Dead time", that is what I think about it and that's one of the reasons I'm fighting now. I don't reach the point of not getting out of the room/flat but I tend to avoid dinner or lunch in restaurants with a lot of people, and doing some things alone like going to buy clothes or so. It helps to go accompanied by someone you trust but I also understand you when you feel bad talking about it with others, I also feel the same. Some situations are avoided because you had a panic attack in the past and think it can happen again in the future. Social interactions are feared the most. That's why in your room you feel safe. I've heard about people not even moving from the half of the bed they feel its 'safe'.

After some months with bad mood, kind of depressed, and after realizing my psycologist wasn't working I told myself to go find another one specialized in this kind of disorders. The change was unbelievable. He told me what I was feeling was totally 'normal' symptoms, we went broke down the Cognitive aspects, motor aspects and psychophysiological aspects (I have them on paper) that we feel when we suffer anxiety. He explained to me a lot of what is happening and WHY, that brought me a calming sensation of not being alone/rare/unique. I am now working (I have homework from session to session) about what situations activate bad feelings and automatic thoughts so we can reprogram them and deactivate those bad beliefs that provoque anxiety/panic attacks. My psycologist assures me that if I work hard with the tools he gives me I will definitely overcome anxiety, and for the time being I'm amazed at how he understands everything I'm going through. He has given me hope, which is something I needed. We also talked about taking medicines, I haven't tried them, but as a friend says, I think they just help you to work on this, they kind of push you forward (a little), then you just can stop taking them.

A very important thing he has also told me is to do Sport, have hobbies, etc. He names them "valves" that lower our anxiety levels or help compress our problems to generate less anxiety.

I don't accept living with anxiety as I think it is not permanent and I've seen improvements over time. I think this couple (she) hasn't received the right treatment. It's not easy but you have to confront your fears, analize them and create a new belief that substitutes them, some of these beliefs come from when you were young or have been there since you were a kid but now they hurt you more.

> Like my loud friend. It's totally his right to be loud, and it's unfair to him that someone like me lives next door.

This is not even close to true, and I suspect even your friend doesn't think it is true! You shouldn't have to hear the person you live next to, period. You feel angry because your friend's behavior is either clueless or inconsiderate—likely the former. Educating him would help both of you.

Please though, stop living like this. It's almost certainly fixable with a conversation or two. If it isn't, talk to a landlord. If it still isn't, talk to the police.

I've been there. I know how you feel. Don't blame yourself.

> Sometimes when I wake up just right after a perfect sleep, hit my routine properly, get everything done, then I feel great, and can go out, and do things. But I have to feel extremely great, and it takes so much work to get there. And it only ever works rarely.

I've been here too. You need to see a therapist, sweetie. It'll help.

It's such a weird situation all around, there's many angles at play. Moving out soon anyways to a more insulated place soon so all of this will cease to matter (hopefully). Thanks.

Being in a relationship with somebody who has anxiety issues is exhausting. It just never ends. Well, until it ends...

"A four hour commute each way"?

No, 4 hours total. 2 hours each way.

God bless you both but I could never do this. Life is hard enough without your partner making things that should be easy difficult.

I was with someone like this for years in my 20s and it eventually became unbearable. At some level, "I have anxiety" starts to feel like an excuse, not that the person can control it exactly, but we all have the ability to tell which of the thoughts occur to us are good ones worth listening to and which aren't. I became resentful of how, for example, a nice vacation would be ruined over worrying about a lingering bill for $50 or whatever. It's really hard to be around someone like that long term and still feel like they make you happy and that your life is better with them in it, when it so clearly is materially not better. It's like all the color drains away from life and why bother doing fun stuff since it'll just get ruined anyway?

> but we all have the ability to tell which of the thoughts occur to us are good ones worth listening to and which aren't

I can assure you, we don't - for some people this is not at all clear, and especially not without outside help.

Yeah, that is phrased poorly and I don't quite know how to put what I'm trying to say. But still I believe we know on some level when we are lying to ourselves. The tricky part is to work out why, and what we are attempting to protect ourselves from when we do it.

I say all this because I deal with these issues to some extent too. But I don't give myself the out of "well I have depression". I'm responsible for my actions and I only have my one life. If something I do or refuse to do doesn't make sense and is making my life worse, I think about why and how I can stop it. I've gotten a lot of help and therapy over the years. It's not easy but the alternative is a lot worse.

> Life is hard enough without your partner making things that should be easy difficult.

Would you make the same argument about a partner with cancer, or Alzheimer's, or multiple sclerosis?

I think we should allow people to express that living with somebody who has serious problems is very hard.

Sure. I'm curious if he would extrapolate from his experience with mental illness to physical illness. I have a friend with cancer now and it is very very hard work for his partner.

I don't like when people compare mental issues to physical disease because three doctors will all diagnose the same cancer as cancer, not so with e.g. anxiety. (Not to mention the race, class, and gender biases that come into play with diagnosing mental issues).

Beside that, there is some element of choice if the condition exists at the time you decide to make the other person your partner. If you meet someone with cancer and decide they'll be your partner, well, you make that choice and everything that comes with it. This is why I say I can't do it. I tried once, for a long time. If your partner becomes ill at some point after that, well, that's life. And it could just as easily have been you.

But anyway, yes, it's hard no matter what. Illness is bad, and sad, and it makes life hard for everyone.

Cancer is not the best example here. Cancer, like anxiety or depression, is not a single disease, it's cluster of symptoms that can have a multitude of different causes.

You can tell when it's bad enough, like if there are visible tumors, but try to get 3 doctors to correctly diagnose whether a cancer is completely gone after treatment.

On the other hand, I guarantee 3 out of 3 doctors will diagnose my panic disorder as panic disorder.

I have recurrent tonsillitis, clearly a physical disease, yet 3 doctors couldn't figure out the cause.

When it comes to disease things are almost always murky, whether it's "physical" or "mental".

I don't really like it when people don't think mental disease isn't a physical issue.

Stop thinking in "types" and responses and most certainly--stop thinking that things happen for "absolutely no reason".

Everything happens for a reason. Anxiety is a mental state. Until that state is resolved, the anxiety will persist. Strong self-reflection is the way out.

Cannabis can help to rocket you through your anxiety and helped me figure it out pretty quickly.

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