Does prospect theory explain Trump and Brexit votes?
cognitionandculture.net
cognitionandculture.net
I love how throughout the post the author keeps on pushing the point that people simply have a misguided perception of reality, under no circumstance it is considered that these people are directly or indirectly affected by current policy.
There are too many people living in opaque bubbles blogging about "what REALLY happened!".
After crying and being distraught for an hour or two, a glimmer of hope arose - after-hours and international stock market was down. And suddenly their demeanor changed, there was a chance again of a tiny victory. They were predicting disaster with the same certainty as they predicted Hillary winning. There was talk of everyone's accounts being wiped out, a lot of "we told you" and so on.
And of course next day stocks went right up and nothing happened.
I just liked it because right after talking how they mispredicted the election so badly, they turned around and predicted something else, which again was quickly shown to be false.
So I do recommend watching the popular news channels, they are a pretty good source of entertainment. Read Manufacturing Consent by Herman and Chomsky and it becomes even funnier.
Also, Nate Silvers gave Trump a 30% chance of winning. There were plenty of pundits who saw Trump as a possibility.
No I'm not saying a word and I advise the HN members who "know what I'm talking about" to STAY quiet as well. I know it's tempting but I've tried it before on HN. I tried explaining, I'd type up these long posts with links to video evidence, scientific papers, psychology today articles and still the you-know-what-leaning downvote brigade got me. I don't mind downvotes but when you see how these people attack and censor and get you fired from work it's just not worth it. I deleted all my comments before the deletion time limit hit and vowed to just stop.
I know some of you are curious but honestly, this is your punishment. Your punishment is not Trump and Brexit, your punishment is never truely knowing why Trump and Brexit happened.
This is your hell. You made it.
What is so obvious that all this complexity is unnecessary? And if it doesn't seem obvious to so many people, why should I (or anyone else) update their beliefs and say ah yes of course; all those careful investigations were just missing the point?
I hope this doesn't come across as derogatory - it's not meant that way. I really am curious about the epistemology; when many people say complicated and some say obvious, what evidence should cause me to believe the latter?
Polls were specifically rigged to show a Democrat victory.
I suspect that's what he's referring to.
There are only a few owners of American media, and they have their agenda. This election cycle was a bit odd in that the normal right-leaning media companies were aligned with the left-leaning ones, so you got bad-mouthing of Trump all-around.
Once the right-leaning media realised they were about to put Hillary into the White House, they did an about face and started doing their normal biased reporting.
Meanwhile, the left-leaning media kept their bias strong from the start.
This seems to be playing out similarly in Great Britain, with their media taking sides, and at the moment, the left-leaning market forces are stronger. I suspect this is due to the huge benefits globalism brings to the media owners and their financial friends.
The problem is, the population at large doesn't benefit from globalism as directly and obviously as the media owners, so they're not playing along with the game anymore.
Just a guess, mind you. GP might be on about something else.
I don't think anybody even casually familiar with British media would argue that "left-leaning market forces are stronger" or that the British media is anything other than rabidly hostile (both on the Brexit right and anti-"neoliberalism" left) to globalism.
It's also pretty hard to argue that the left-wing, Remain-backing Guardian's doesn't publish a lot more commentary criticising the shortcomings of globalisation and berating international capital than pieces extolling its virtues.
Automation, globalization, and anti-unionization have been pushing down wages for 30+ years. Government policies by both parties seem to do nothing but speed up the process, particularly in globalization. The only thing the Dems had to offer was social safety net, but most people would rather have better paying jobs. The Republicans only offered rhetoric and an extra helping of anti-unionization.
Also, I don't think a vote for Trump is for the GOP or their policies. The GOP was the platform Trump used to get elected (as he slashed and burned their policies). I think the vote was anti-establishment (anti-GOP and anti-Dem). It could be a sign of just how economically desperate many people in the red areas are.
Also, it's very difficult / rare for a party to get a third term in recent history.
I'm not from one of the "Brexit States", but my family is spread across much of the rural Midwest and that sentence expresses their feelings quite succinctly. One family member, during a conversation about tech, volunteered that he thinks self-driving trucks will destroy much of what's left of the patchwork of small towns remaining near where he lives. No more relatively predictable income from truckers at diners and gas stations when the battery powered robots never have to stop for food or gas.
- I clamor for women's rights but when a certain religion is guilty of trampling over women's rights, I go quiet
- I clamor for equality before law but when a certain religion asks for different laws for different religions, I go quiet
People don't take too lightly to their sense of fairness being trampled over, and this feeling of unfairness seems to be a cause for growing discontent.
"There are too many people living in opaque bubbles blogging about 'what REALLY happened!'"
1 party loyalty
2 identity politics
3 active voter suppression in key states
4 The Electoral College, which was designed to prevent this exact thing (demagoguery)
#1 & #2 are discussed in "Democracy for Realists: Why Elections Do Not Produce Responsive Government (Princeton Studies in Political Behavior)" https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0691169446
#2 also discussed in "The Politics of Resentment: Rural Consciousness in Wisconsin and the Rise of Scott Walker (Chicago Studies in American Politics)" https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/022634911X
#3 and other dirty tricks discussed in "Ratfked: The True Story Behind the Secret Plan to Steal America's Democracy" https://www.amazon.com/Ratf-ked-Behind-Americas-Democracy/dp...
and
"The Great Suppression: Voting Rights, Corporate Cash, and the Conservative Assault on Democracy" https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/110190576X
It's only "most of us" if you live in a liberal echo chamber. E.g. the NY Times has done some recent naval gazing, but it would be fascinating to find out what percent of their employees voted for Trump. Fewer than 10%? Fewer than 1%? So, certainly, the result "surprised" them.
Meanwhile in the real world the popular vote breakdown was:
Clinton 63,515,588
Trump 61,917,320
That's about a 1% difference. I don't see how that translates to "surprised most of us"!> That's about a 1% difference. I don't see how that translates to "surprised most of us"!
You can't use the result of the elections to claim that the result was "expected"!
The stock market expected a Clinton win, and so did betting markets outside the US:
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/07/betting-sites-see-record-wage...
Arguably, at some point even Trump indicated that he believed Clinton would win, when he claimed the elections were "rigged".
Here's a video where a computer programmer who worked on voting systems is questioned under oath, and he makes some pretty good arguments that elections are rigged. At least the ones where electronic voting machines are used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcxGGnmRQAs&t=92s
I'll admit, I didn't bother researching, but I'd understood a lot of electronic voting machines were used in the election we just underwent.
The results of the election only slightly surprised me, but I've gone to great lengths to avoid ingesting media from mainstream sources. Outside the mainstream, Trump's popularity was quite a bit more obvious.
My point is that candidate B claimed the election would be rigged against him; it's not a stretch to assume he thought candidate A would probably win at that point.
But what was surprising, all along, to people from all sorts of echo chambers (including, I think, Trump himself) was that Trump had this support in the first place. He was the goofball candidate in the primaries. Mitt Romney, the previous Republican nominee, called him a "phony" and a "fraud," and said, "He's playing the American public for suckers." Imagine McCain saying that about Romney, or Kerry about Obama! He dominated the news cycle for months with indiscretions and mistakes. He lost the debates, by any metric in which you care about actual policy discussed at the debates. Republicans were quite worried about him dooming the party. It was clear months before November that he was a realistic candidate who would win about half of the popular vote, but the fact that we got to that point was surprising.
But in the final weeks the US election had close polling. Clinton was leading Trump by less than 5% in most polls and was actually behind in a few of them (Matt Drudge always managed to find those polls to link to).
So it's hard to understand why people might have those beliefs in a relatively close election. Easier to understand if the election was predicted to be a blowout.
But blowouts don't happen that often. The most recent true blowout I experienced was Reagan vs Mondale in 1984. An electoral blowout, only Minnesota and DC voted for Mondale. But the popular vote was closer, roughly 59%/41%.
As pointed out, trump himself didn't expect to win.
That echo chamber thing cuts both ways.
That's it, honestly.
We on the left need to dial it back a bit and have a discussion, and move forward with consensus rather than trying to drag everyone kicking-and-screaming along with our agenda regardless of if we feel it's "right" or not.
You don't win the tolerance argument with a stick, you win it with a carrot.
I'm not American and I've watched American politics for fun and profit for a long time now.
Firstly - "you" have already tried cooperation.
The day Obama won, the republicans regrouped from a devastating loss and promised to make him a one term president. They've converted the routine and boring debt ceiling increase into political theater, grinding America to a halt.
Iirc they've fought Medicare tooth and nail, even though it's modeled on a republican program.
Many things have aligned to create this situation. As i recall working with people on the other side is considered bad form.
This isn't simply because of a liberal agenda or because people haven't been listening. It's because people have actively been injecting narrative and false data in order to move voting populations in specific directions.
> Iirc they've fought Medicare tooth and nail, even though it's modeled on a republican program.
First, you're thinking of Obamacare, not Medicare (actually, the Affordable Care Act); the narrative you're reaching for is that the ACA is modeled on Republican ideas, therefore the GOP isn't allowed to object to it. Medicare is something completely different, a health insurance entitlement aimed at seniors that's existed for decades.
And even then, neither half of the story is really true, because the GOP is not a monolith. Yes, the Heritage Foundation proposed something vaguely similar in the '90s, and Mitt Romney -- a liberal Republican governing one of our most liberal states -- pushed a vaguely similar plan as well many years ago, but the majority of Republicans disagreed with both on the idea. And even if it was based entirely on an old GOP idea, there's no logical way to therefore decide the GOP can't have problems with this implementation of it, or not believe the Obama administration would be competent to execute it.
Think of it this way. Bill Clinton supported military action against Iraq during his term, and even carried it out. Does that mean no Democrats were allowed to object to George W. Bush's Iraq war, because it was "based on a Democratic idea"? Of course not; the very idea is absurd. Same deal here.
But as I just checked, it seems that all the republicans voted against it and that support for ACA was considered toxic, and that this negatively affected Mitt Romney's standing in the party. I am of course happy to understand more.
Do note, that I have been watching and learning more about American politics and history since 1990, since before the Gulf War. Theres a distinct trend towards partisanship, which got enhanced during the era of Fox news, and has now resulted in hyper-partisanship.
(Do note that America is not particular alone in dealing with this trend)
To that, I say: "Well, then. I guess I'll just bow out and let you guys handle that Trump fellow on your own. I'm not about to lend a helping hand anymore." It's actually rather liberating to know I don't need to put any effort into the political arena. I can just sit back, relax, and laugh at the spectacle.
If they do not self-censor themselves, they can expect to easily be a social pariah in most urban areas of living, with all the negative economic connotations that ensues.
If you voted for Trump... Why did you vote for him over Hillary?
In other words, it takes a swing to the other side in order to radicalize the other side and swing the pendulum of discussion back in their favor.
Maybe the ACA repeal will lead us to actually have single payer with the next cycle?