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Comment by mehrdada | Hacker News Reader

It's funny, a long time ago, my brother and I were debating what would be a good definition that draws a line between a real "computer", as opposed to a calculator/controller/toy/etc. I was advocating running a real OS kernel as a heuristic (but then you'd have to define what a "real kernel" would be), and him, being a Doom fan, came up with:

"It counts as a real computer if it runs Doom."

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> "It counts as a real computer if it runs Doom."

Haha. I remember back in the days when the benchmark for computing and graphic processing power was measured in terms of "Does it run Microsoft Flight Simulator?"

Also, "Is it a real PC clone?" used the "will it run MS Flight Simulator" test.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=D0O_-ER3Z_gC&pg=PA168&lp...

(Bottom of 3rd column) https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PjwEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA41&lpg...

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Wcv9oIHOrjQC&pg=PA170&lp...

I just had to take 5 to ask my brother what his Hacker News handle is to confirm that you're not him.

I'm sorry to tell you it is even more complicated than if it can run doom. Does this count as doom?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TuupoxmeQ6U

Another definition i have seen is the QWERTY keyboard restriction. If i remember correctly some good calculators from Texas Instruments have abc keyword to be allowed on some big math tests in US. (Or is this maybe just a myth in Europe?)

I've always considered a TI-83 to be a computer in its own right. It's called a calculator, but for as long as it's been a thing, it's been used as a more general computer as well.

TI-83 has alphabetic input (but not QWERTY)

Also, that's quite clearly not Doom. A Doom port must have at least E1 of the original Doom, with minimal layout changes. That means multiple levels, and up/down moving platforms, by definition.

That video looks more like wolfenstein

> If i remember correctly some good calculators from Texas Instruments have abc keyword to be allowed on some big math tests in US. (Or is this maybe just a myth in Europe?)

Not a myth. College Board has a blanket ban on QWERTY keyboards in tests, so TI Nspire line has ABCDEF keyboards

Wait, why would they ban keyboard layouts?

probably an outdated heuristic for distinguishing a "real computer" from a "calculator".

I imagine they were trying to define "computer" versus "calculator," and then banned computers.

That is insane. Why?

But then, a lot of things about the College Board are pretty nuts: It is the reason that graphing calculator companies can continue to scam the public by selling overpriced machines running at absurdly low speeds (Their most popular calculator is a 6-15MHz Z80, with 48-128K ram (but YOU, the programmer, can only access 24K): That's pathetic, and yet you can buy a chromebook (a LAPTOP capable of running the famously resource-hungry Chrome) for the same price). The Plus CE did a bit to improve this, but it's still less capable then the phone in your pocket: That is inexcusable).

> Their most popular calculator is a 6-15MHz Z80, with 48-128K ram (but YOU, the programmer, can only access 24K): That's pathetic, and yet you can buy a chromebook (a LAPTOP capable of running the famously resource-hungry Chrome) for the same price). The Plus CE did a bit to improve this, but it's still less capable then the phone in your pocket: That is inexcusable).

The Nspire line isn't that bad.. It's not high-end by any means (it's still a damn calculator), but it at least got the lineup to 21st century.

Yes, but firstly, the Nspire line is nowhere near as popular, and secondly, everyone who would ever need such a calculator is already carrying around a phone that's more powerful, and can run better software (Android has ports of Maxima (the open source descendant of MACSYMA) and REDUCE, as well as simpler CASes), as well as full support for all the calculator software (Android runs Wabbit)

K12 teachers don't want students distracted by phones in class. It's much easier to police which physical device a student is handling than which capability they're exercising.

Even in BYOD netbook world, you can bet all social networking and messaging is blocked at the web filter. (Sometimes time-based restrictions open it for lunch and after school, sometimes not).

>K12 teachers don't want students distracted by phones in class. It's much easier to police which physical device a student is handling than which capability they're exercising.

...Which is why they get away with it. But the calculators are still absurdly overpriced.

Besides, any student can load all sorts of software onto those calculators fairly trivially.

For an earlier example, see the TI-92 and TI-89. The 89 is basically exactly the same as the 92, but with the button layout of the TI-81/85 series.

Programmable calculators and computers are rather close, no?

What about eCig batteries?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvQ6K8ariWs

TI Voyage-200 and TI-92+ had a QWERTY keyboard, and almost the same internals as the TI-89.

It counts as a real computer if you can program it with itself.

That's my bar at least.

Does this count? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xCd55oSgO4

It is the same with questions like what counts as intelligence, what counts as alive? The boundaries shy away. In fact it is probably impossible to find simple definitions for these terms, i.e. definitions that get by without special rules for all kinds of instances which just feel more intelligent, alive or like a computer, or less. The definition is irreducible in the sense that we cannot explain our intuition without tracing back the history of our species and of the memes and neuronal firing patterns inside our brains, information that likely cannot be compressed very well. The same applies to human values.

Stephen Wolfram just gave an interesting talk and Q/A session on this problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxQwpdB9wbg

The demoscene doesn't really much care for these distinctions, if it has at least a display, the scene will try to get a cube rotating on it, or some copper bars, or something.

Sometimes even a display isn't necessary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1f6UE27KTo

https://web.archive.org/web/20061029111228/http://www.itplay...

If it can run a Turing machine simulator, then it's a real computer.

A million headless servers would disagree :)

Xvfb?

A million headless servers can X-forward DOOM to a desktop.

Better heuristic: You can run custom programms on it (doom included ;))

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