New immigration rules make it easier for Americans to work and stay in Canada | Hacker News Reader

New immigration rules make it easier for Americans to work and stay in Canada

globalnews.ca

49 pointscolinprince60 comments

My wife and I applied for the Canadian Express Entry program. We started the process in September, once we realized that a Trump win was more likely than it seemed.

We are minorities, and immigrants. We are also highly educated, earn a combined total of 250k+, and were planning to buy a house this year. We've been in the US for 7 years, are well integrated, and liked living here.

Now, we are planning to leave the US as soon as we can. We have enough points that we should be invited soon, and we'll be out of here.

We are not alone. Many (6, as of yesterday) friends of mine with similar backgrounds have asked me about the process, and are starting it themselves.

Anecdata, I know, but six month ago my wife and I were looking at real estate listings. Now, we are looking at international moving companies. Our jobs are secure, nothing else has changed. We just don't want to live in a country where the president routinely insults people who don't look like him. And people in our state have started noticing a rise in insults and discrimination that simply didn't exist before.

From a fellow immigrant, please don't believe everything NYT/CNN tell you (i.e. daily fearmongering).

You don't need the media to know how much Trump likes to stir up fear and hatred in the USA. Watching him speak vs Trudeau is like night and day.

Trump clearly wants to make everyone fearful of the outsiders, of the elites, and fearful for their future so they can be sold his plan.

Trudeau is almost the polar opposite in how he presents himself and his vision. He thinks about issues deeply and wants to build a united country where people see their differences as strengths and take care of each other.

The media in both countries likes to incite fear because that's what sells, it's far easier than ever before to do that with the current president elect.

Trudeau just got into office. Give it some time.

If my government wanted to put me on a special list because of my religion, or my lack thereof, that would be all the incentive I'd need to emigrate.

It's not the media. It's Trump - his own words and deeds. The media doesn't need to tell you about Trump, he does it himself. My wife and I have heard and seen enough.

You don't know where he lives though. He could live close to rural areas which might be a big problem.

The burden of being a minority in rural areas is that anything you do is magnified and generalized for all people in that group. If someone locally commits a crime they can say its a one time thing but if a person of color/minority commits a crime, it literally spreads across a small town and generalized simply because rural areas don't often come into contact with minorities.

Thus is the burden of being a minority in rural America.

I'm not in deep rural America, but I'm not in a big city either - I'm about 50 miles from the nearest big city. And this is a red state.

It's mostly white people here, and that was never ever an issue before the events of 2016. Seriously, I didn't even think about it. Yes, people were sometimes a little distant or whatever, but I never faced racism that I could point at. It helps that we speak fluently with barely any accent - people (store clerks, etc.) would be standoffish till we spoke and then they'd be fine.

Now, there's a distinctly different feeling when we walk into our grocery store, or go out to eat. People look at us more, there's a chill in the air and it's not just winter.

You might think I'm being paranoid and maybe I am. But I'm taking it seriously enough to upend our life and move to a new country. This isn't something you do on a whim, or just cause you're feeling singled out.

I sent my fingerprints to the FBI for a police check. That's not like buying a coffee.

We are just so disappointed - and let me clarify, I'm not politically active, nor do I care very much for the other candidate. It's just sad to think that this is the best the US could do. It's also terrifying (as immigrants and minorities) to see the people who are getting cabinet positions.

My friend's six year old daughter was told to go back to her own country. She was born here. She is indistinguishable from your average six-year old US kid - except she isn't white and has a name that's different. She never had that happen before.

We aren't going to raise our children here.

I'm going to get off my soapbox now. I'm sorry if this comment isn't a good fit for HN. I am a quiet soul and do not usually speak stridently online or offline. I guess this HN story just caught me at a low point.

> I sent my fingerprints to the FBI for a police check. That's not like buying a coffee.

what does this mean?

anyway -

you're not going to find any less of what you're describing in canada. possibly even more, depending on where you move. the backlash to their hard-left politics hasn't happened yet, but it will.

-non-white american with immigrant parents

It's part of the immigration requirements (i.e., prove you're not a criminal).

I think OP mentioned it because it's fairly annoying to do, and thus indicates his seriousness.

I'm an immigrant too. Actually, more like a refugee. I've moved from one country to another twice. Once escaping from Islamic nationalists and once more fleeing from Russian nationalists and skinheads. Have I ever seen people looking weird at me in my 16 years in the US. Sure, plenty of times. Have people ever talked down to me because of my heritage or the way I spoke English and etc? Yep. That happened too. Has it bothered me? No. Believe me this is nothing compared to the shit me and my family have gone through. This country has built me from ground up and given me and my family unbelievable opportunities I'd never otherwise even dream about. There is nothing that I've experienced here that will outweigh the good things. Good luck with your move, but If you're looking for a land of cupcakes and rainbows you'll be very disappointed.

There's no cupcake shortage in Canada. We have the occasional rainbow, too.

The most unpleasant thing I can think of about life up here is that occasionally some YouTube video you want to watch is region-blocked. It's not "being chased by a mob of nationalist vigilantes" bad, but it's still annoying.

Aren't ISPs really bad too?

Yes, but he's moving from the States, so he's used to that. If you want decent internet, you basically have to move to Northern Europe, or Asia.

It wouldn't be hard to compile a list of things are slightly worse in Canada than in the US (product availability, weather). But, it wouldn't be hard to compile a list of things are slightly better, too (infrastructure, crime rate). I can also think of things that are better in Europe (architecture, mobile telephony, travel) but taken as a whole, I think Canada strikes a pretty decent balance.

i also believe the op to be anxious and irrational because of the media coverage. i think many people are. the media was wrong about trump, and now they are doubling down by stoking fear in the hearts of viewers. it's insanity. let's not talk about how these outlets are all owned by individuals and groups/interests opposing trump and his agenda.

this is basic US partisan politics 101, and it's scaring people who are not used to it, or do not understand how it works, like this person who has lived here for 7 years and is now shocked that we do not live in a nation that would vote for basically a 3rd obama term. this is literally his first white president (lol, think about that) and now he lives in a racist shithole? come on.

2 of the deepest red states in the nation elected indian american republican governors. louisiana, and south carolina. the entire nation elected obama twice. california has yet to elect a non-white governor, or senator. has new york? i don't know, but i doubt it. silicon valley is still run by nearly 100% white people. the only time i've ever seen open racism was in boston massachusetts.

notice how his justification for moving is "a chill in the air", "people look at me longer" .. these aren't words or actions by other people, these are feelings that arise internally from a heightened state of awareness due to anxiety.

my parents immigrated here in the 80s and faced some really fucked up discrimination and have persevered and succeeded (and so have i) in a great country. if this person is going to throw away their 7 years of work and quarter million dollar income (immigrants making $250k, sounds like an awful place) for a "chill in the air" i say good riddance. they're in for a rude awakening when they meet their first canadian racist and their first canadian tax withholding.

In all seriousness, what do you figure they intend to do with that list of muslims? You seem very relaxed about the whole thing.

In all seriousness, if there is a national registry of Muslims created under a Trump presidency, I'll eat my hat. We are a nation of laws and the office of the president does not carry absolute power. The list of Muslims campaign promise runs afoul of so many limits on power, starting with the 1st amendment. It won't happen.

It can happen if enough people, or even enough of the right people, want it to.

Eg: http://history.howstuffworks.com/history-vs-myth/japanese-in...

FDR was a democrat.

This is not the 40's. We are not embroiled in World War 2.

    > This is not the 40's.

Investors actually have a name for that. They call it the "This time is different" fallacy.

for what it's worth, i think if there continues to be self-proclaimed terrorist attacks on the US, they will definitely start rounding people up.

this time is not different.

A 300-word HN comment does not encompass everything about my life and my decisions. Please understand that there are good reasons for what I'm doing - I am a rational human being, after all, and I'm not going to write essays that go over the hundreds of hours of thought, deliberation and research that lies behind my decision.

I'm very glad your parents (and you) succeeded here. And the US is undoubtedly a great country.

However, in my particular case, in my particular circumstances, I have made this decision.

If you feel that I'm being silly, and "good riddance" to me, that's your prerogative. People are complex beings, and I will afford you the courtesy that you denied me.

Your overreaction is stirring up divisive reactions that aren't helping constructive discourse. If you want to move, fine, do what is best for your family. But don't be surprised that HN calls you out for providing insufficient evidence for your claims.

"the media was wrong about trump, and now they are doubling down by stoking fear in the hearts of viewers. "

Granted I don't live in the states so I can't comment on the media but have you seen his twitter account the last couple of day?

Doesn't seem to be the most stable guy running the show. Not talking about the scary reactions you will see from a lot of trump supporters with regards of those tweets.

I can only imagine what it must be for some people living in a society like this. And it's seems that this is only the beginning.

I'm about to start the process, but I'm having a hard time picking a province. Any pointers? I don't speak French, I would like a somewhat temperate climate, and affordable rent.

Best climate in Canada would be Southern Ontario or BC. If you're not in a big city, housing should be quite affordable in those provinces. Everywhere else in Canada, well, the weather can vary. No worries about needing to know French, it's only required in Quebec or (useful for) federal government jobs. But ultimately where you settle is up to you (or maybe your employer)...

Best climate in Canada would be Southern Ontario

Southern Ontario often get to -30C and has huge lake effect snow storms.

BC is great if you're in Vancouver ($$$$ for housing) or Victoria ($$$ for housing).

Really? Often -30°C? https://goo.gl/OWcFuU (Windsor) or https://goo.gl/mx9L52 (Toronto)

Averages hide the extremes. I used to live in Toronto. I would say at least a few days each winter it got to -30C.

Many years there won't be a -30 day in toronto, and, even when there is, it's just a couple days. Between TTC and PATH it's easy to stay inside those handful of bad days.

Toronto is rarely below -20, which is pretty easy to manage with the right clothing. It's a shock for someone coming from an area without winter, but I know many, many people who have adjusted.

Kelowna is nice.

For a somewhat temperate climate and English speaking, you're probably looking at either the west coast, or (depending on your definition) southern Ontario. For affordable rent, avoid Vancouver and Toronto, but there are plenty of smaller cities that are both nice to live in and (more) affordable. I'm biased toward Victoria - on Vancouver Island, population ~ 350k, about a 90 minute ferry + hour drive from Vancouver. (Of course, "affordable" is relative. It's way cheaper than IE San Francisco, but expensive compared to many other places. Check out rents here: http://www.usedvictoria.com/classifieds/real-estate-rentals)

Vancouver Island is stunningly beautiful, and has the most temperate climate in Canada. Snow rarely sticks.

From what I've heard, Vancouver is really expensive and Canada's salaries for developers don't compensate for it. Is that true?

Vancouver != Vancouver Island

Vancouver is very expensive, yes. Vancouver Island is an island off the mainland, and is completely different. It's still not "cheap" by Canadian standards because it's oceanfront, supremely beautiful and probably has the most temperate weather in Canada, but it's also not "expensive" by Canadian standards either.

great. You can bring your 250k+ usd income earnings, buy up real estate here and make it even more unaffordable for us canadians to own property and live here.

Unfortunately Canada hasn't completely avoided anti-immigration sentiment, but I like to think the majority up here are welcoming.

It's going to get a lot less welcoming in the coming years. Unemployment is trending upwards, there's not really any up and coming industries to replace jobs lost in resources (all commodities but especially oil are down), and the demographic shift (immigration) is driving down wages.

We got a taste of it when Harper campaigned on anti-terrorist paranoia, but most people just thought he was a clown. When large swaths of Canadians are out of jobs, the anti-immigrant sentiment will come to the fore. Here in Alberta it's already pretty bad - unemployment is at levels we haven't seen in decades, yet a steady stream of TFWs are still somehow getting hired, and there's no reprieve in sight.

Unfortunately you're probably right. Of course, as most people here understand, the economy isn't a zero sum game, so we should be welcoming skilled immigrants and thanking them for adding to our prosperity, not complaining about them buying homes or taking jobs. (Think instead of the taxes they're paying, or the jobs they're creating, directly or indirectly.)

As far as the "making homes more unaffordable" point, I could see the case for absentee foreign buyers who leave the properties empty. It's still not the real problem, but I can understand the frustration, and support initiatives like a tax on vacant property. That's a big difference from someone immigrating to the country and buying a home though! And anyway, what really makes homes unaffordable is lack of sufficient density. Sure, there's a peak where there is simply no more space, but cities like Vancouver are nowhere near it.

Immigration generally increases unemployment in the short term, and is only a job creator in the long term. The question: can Canada absorb enough new immigrants to reach the point where they add to our prosperity before the social and economic issues become too much for us to bear?

The US got a huge boost in sci and tech in the forties by bringing in fleeing scientists from across Europe. If Trump guts the h1b program as he's promised to, carries in with the Muslim registration lists, and continues to escalate xenophobia, we'll see a huge outflow of scientists from the US. Canada seems pretty well positioned to pick up a good number of them.

And what will they do? Honestly, the real reason the US has such a robust economy is that they invest in companies at home. There's far less venture capital dollars here, most wealthy Canadians park their money offshore, and have zero risk tolerance. This means no engineering and science start-ups. Even the one industry where start ups are a thing here, tech, there's hardly any money floating around. You might get funded in Vancouver, but there's half a dozen markets in the US where you'll have an easier time.

sure, chalk working people's issues down to "anti-immigration sentiment". That's how Trump got elected, and despite being liberal if the housing crisis continues, I'll be leaning toward voting any party (even conservatives) that can promise to resolve the issue of the market being flooded with this crazy influx of new immigrants and foreign buyers bringing the salaries down and property prices up.

Isn't it literally "anti-immigration sentiment" when someone expresses a desire to have someone else not immigrate?

There is a bigdifference between an absent foreign buyer who simply takes a property out of circulation, and someone who actually moves to the country and lives in the house they buy. The latter is no longer 'foreign'; they're a new Canadian resident and IMO should be welcomed as such. Even from a purely selfish perspective (which, again IMO, we could use less of,) the country benefits significantly from skilled immigrants. Moreover, they're not what causes high house prices, except in the most marginal sense. The real problem is on the supply side. Foreign buyers are a part of it, in cities like Vancouver, but prices could still be brought down by increasing density. The general problem with that is, there's a disincentive to do that for the people who already own property, which tends to be most people in positions of power, and those to whom they are beholden. Immigrants are an easy scapegoat, but if we actually want to improve things, we need to look at policies that will do that, and I don't believe putting up a wall (literal or figurative) is one of them.

He will be a Canadian if he immigrates here.

That's right. IF he immigrates here. I will be making sure to vote for the party that slows down this insane amount of immigration.

Maybe you can move to the USA then and even things out.

I know you're being flippant, and I have no idea of your circumstances.. but let me tell you that I'm no millionaire. When we move, we'll be giving up a lot, and will probably end up living in a tiny apartment while we rebuild our life.

So don't worry, I'm not the guy buying the big mansion :) I'm probably your neighbor shoveling snow.

This is a great reply. If everyone were as reasonable as you sir, the world would be a better place.

I'm a tech worker in the GTA (Toronto area) and an immigrant from Mexico. I came here 8 years ago. If you happen to be coming here and ever need any settlement pointers, feel free to reach out. Good luck!

"Foreigners buying up real estates" is only an issue in Vancouver and maybe Toronto.

earn a combined total of 250k+

Be prepared to take a hefty cut to your income. Canadian salaries are much lower generally.

Yes, but my company sounds like they'll move my job. If not, so be it.

>Canadian salaries are much lower generally.

No, they're not:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/166211/worldwide-median-household...

It does depend heavily on the industry. If you're in oil/gas, then yeah, you'll do great. Tech industry? Not so much.

Solution: work in tech for oil/gas companies. I'm sure they could use some talented engineers to help work out all the data to figure out where the next best place to drill is.

The Trump = Racism thing is a media lie. http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wo... Trump gained more of the non-white vote than the last two Republicans to run, has a Jewish daughter, and constantly talks about how he values other cultures. Just not uncontrolled immigration.

Trump does want to maintain a state registry for people belonging to a certain religion though. You're right that it might not be racism, but it's also obviously awful.

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