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Comment by taurath | Hacker News Reader

Does anyone else think certain video games are the equivalent of slot machine? I'm not just talking about simple phone games, but more complex, team based pick up games as well - if you rely on a matchmaker that knows to an approximation the skill of each player, is it not randomizing ones chance to win? I live with gaming addicts and used to be one - they spend every waking hour on their pcs while not at work. It's their freedom to do whatever they want with their lives but it feels like they're wasting all the early parts of their lives away.

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I played WoW 40-50 hours a week in a "ranked" raiding guild for about four years. It was the exact same sensation for me when loot would drop in new raids that I feel winning a few bucks at the casino.

I eventually quit cold turkey. I'm not sure I regret those four years, I made some great friends, many of whom I still keep in touch with, but it was no doubt an addiction, and it cost me a decent amount of "real life" advancement imo.

Depends on how you look at it. With a social game like WoW, you get back what you put into it and it depends on what you wanted to achieve.

I played quite heavily for about 2.5 years while I was still in school, in the early days of the game. Probably close to 12,000 hours. But to me, those hours were actually a great investment for following reasons: 1) When I started out, I set out to play in the best global PvE guild. After two years, I achieved that and played with them for another 6 months; and 2) two years later, I had an idea for a gaming related app that took me two months to build and eventually made me $250k. Wouldn't have had that idea without my WoW experience.

Climbing as a random player to joining a top guild showed me that you can achieve anything reasonable in life if you put your mind to it. WoW had 11 million players at the time and for a while I was considered a top 100 player in the game. In a way, it gave me a sped up view of life. And honestly, I'm grateful for that because I probably wouldn't be where I am now!

I was a WoW addict. I wouldn't say I regret those four years, I made some really great friends, lots of them I still keep in touch with, but it was definitely an addiction, and it cost me a decent amount of "real life" potential imo.

Video games have a sane money/fun ratio. If you're addicted then you might screw up your life but you won't steal from anybody to keep up your habit.

I guess what I'm asking is, where is the bar for a healthy pastime vs an addiction? Is it willingness to steal from others to keep up habits? Or is it things that are addictive enough to make one forget the rest of their lives?

Well professionals talk about abuse rather than addiction. For instance people taking opiods for chronic pain are certainly addicted but as long as they dose responsibly it doesn't matter. Basically the point at which the addiction negatively affects your life but you continue anyway is when it becomes abuse.

True - it does force one into a certain path though as you feed the beast. Just as someone taking lots of opioids is less likely to drive a car, someone playing a lot of games is likely to not spend much time in the real world.

I find it to be a happiness trap myself, it puts you in a gated world which doles out satisfaction, but you can never achieve long-lasting emotional and physical well being. When the person wakes up at 40, 50 and finds a life of little achievement from what they once dreamed, now it being too late to truly make big moves... similar to people who spend all their time functionally drinking or smoking weed. Yes, you can survive, but when your working days are over and you find you have no skills or abilities or hobbies or close relationships, what has your life been for?

I've had a parent that after a lifetime of working and providing and chilling out by having beers exit the workforce and suddenly having nothing to attach to. I fear the same for my friends.

I'm a person currently struggling to find that line as well, and what I'm currently using as a barometer is: does it affect your livelihood?

I would say that my love of alcohol and wine in particular would qualify as an addiction; but at the same time I'm able to hold down a job. My bosses are happy with my work and I do feel fulfilled with what I've accomplished at the end of the workday.

I'm sure psychologists would have a field day with me but as far as your original question I've offered my input.

Some people would add: does it affect your relationships?

LOL it's nice that you think I have relationships. I hope that answers your question.

E: to amend that, I do have a small group of close male friends but I do have trouble finding an intimate relationship, due to other (unrelated? maybe?) issues with women.

I didn't only mean romantic relationships, but family relationships and friendships. I'm sure there are plenty of non-addiction-related reasons for being single!

It's interesting about the familial relationships. My father is pretty far along the religious spectrum and I am not, however we get along just fine. Of course the alcohol is something of a taboo and there have been certain frictions in between my life choices and his (such as the drinking and piercings/tattoos) however overall the relationship is still what I'd consider stable.

I realize I might have taken this a bit too personally and lost track of the overall theme. I do agree that judging the effect of certain vices could also be judged by more than just "does it affect your livelihood".

Maybe traditional games, but not the modern free-to-play games. They exploit the same techniques casinos do to get customers to buy a lot of in-game items.

and they have the added benefit of massive analytics and tracking systems to data mine user retention and in app purchases and a/b test ideas at a scale the casinos could only dream about.

Sure, but the real currency of life is time.

Assuming it's a skill based game but you never make an attempt to get better - I see the similarities. My question is: how is that different then a sport with leagues putting players at similar skill levels - is that just gambling too since they are so close in skill the game could go either way?

Many modern games have a ladder or elo system that you can only improve though increasing your ability to win (i.e. NOT just playing). I'd argue there is at least some value in taking enjoyment from improving yourself at any task. With that said if you are stuck at the 50% winloss playing over and over again you are probably trending to gambling addiction.

"I'd argue there is at least some value in taking enjoyment from improving yourself at any task" I agree but I think the task has to be meaningful in some way. I used to play modern warfare 2 from dawn til bedtime because I wanted the 2500 headshot with the F.A.L. achievement badge. I was getting like 70 headshots/day and feeling really good about it. Then one day I realized they'll eventually take down the servers and no one will ever know how awesome I was... So I do agree it feels good to improve at something, but it's best when we improve our skill set. Like becoming a better cook, or a musician practicing their instrument. Getting headshots with the F.A.L. was fun and all, but ultimately meaningless. I think gambling falls into this category. Gambling can be fun for most people, but for some people it stops being a game and becomes something serious.

Personally, I don't gamble - I'm afraid I'd win. I have a super addictive personality and I think hitting the Jackpot on a slot machine would be the most dangerous thing ever to a guy like me.

> is it not randomizing ones chance to win?

In a way, yes. But that's not the purpose. If you play ranked games, or any games of skill really, playing a completely mismatched game is just no fun. Imagine you want to play basketball for example, but you can't choose who you're playing with - you turn up and you're with a 2yo baby against NBA pros. Or the other way around. If there's no realistic challenge people will just lose interest.

> it feels like they're wasting all the early parts of their lives away.

Do you think the same of kids going to play soccer with their friends? Why / why not?

> Do you think the same of kids going to play soccer with their friends? Why / why not?

Has to do with the social skills that you learn and practice. Gaming is an escape from the real world in a bit of a different way - all social contact is reduced and "giving up" is as easy as a keystroke. The rewards you're getting are intangible and created by a programmer to entice you to make numbers go up or get a new hat, only applicable while you're still playing the game. It can be a wonderful place for people on the low end of the social spectrum to practice working together in a safe environment but rarely have I seen people get better at overcoming social problems that require tenacity through gaming.

I think these are two different things that should be separated. Ranked games with matchmaking and hats/achievements. One can exist without the other and they pull in people for different reasons. For example most of newgrounds has achievements / hats / whatever, but no multiplayer at all. On the other hand hearthstone has ranked games but very little to do with hats (there are paid and collecting elements, but they actually affect your play - they're not useless tokens). Then there's Dota with both.

> "giving up" is as easy as a keystroke

Kids often rage-quit games and interactions in real life games. Not sure if it's that different from this point of view.

Really dota 2 has stuff that you buy with $ that affect the gameplay ?

Badly worded, can't edit now. I meant both the ranked play and the useless tokens/hats.

I read once that the noises that slot machines make, and more recently mobile games like candy crush etc are the truly addictive element.

Its like when you use a clicker to train a dog. Do the trick - hear the click - and get a treat. Eventually you don't get the treat anymore more, but that doesnt stop you doing the trick (putting another coin in the slot).

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