Ask HN: Have you done / plan to do any basic “prepping” (tinned food etc) | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Have you done / plan to do any basic “prepping” (tinned food etc)

I have half an eye on NZ right now (waiting to hear from some friends of friends) and on the interwebs there are a few articles written by not obviously-insane people about how sensible it is to have a few stocks of this, first aid kits of that and so on. I feel it's next in my list after getting the tax-efficient index savings going.

Is this a common thing and any advice?

View on HN

It's very sensible to prep for small or extended periods of supply-chain breakdown. My wife and I have taken the following precautions:

- We have a few LifeStraw personal water filters [1]. These things are awesome -- one of them filters up to 1,000 liters of drinking water. Very reasonable price too ($20, you can get them for cheaper occasionally on sites like woot). I'd argue these are the most important items we own.

- We have an abundance of canned goods. This isn't primarily meant for "prepping", but we always buy more canned goods than we need when we find them on sale.

- This won't apply to everyone, but we have a large amount of heirloom seeds we've collected over the past few years. We have ~9.5 acres of land, so if things were to ever get rough (and plants still grew) we'd be able to get food that way.

[1] - https://www.amazon.com/LifeStraw-LSPHF017-Personal-Water-Fil...

Iodine tablets are super cheap too.

This. A trace amount of bleach is also a highly effective purifying agent, though it's trickier to get that right.

> we have a large amount of heirloom seeds we've collected over the past few years.

Don't seeds get unviable (if that is the right word) after a few years? I've done gardening in the past, and seen that seeds a few years old sometimes do not germinate. Might want to test with a few of each kind and date range, periodically.

Seed viability is indeed the correct term.

Commercially bought seeds usually have a "best before" date on the packet.

There's some information here, but it's pretty technical: http://data.kew.org/sid/viability/

Had a quick look. Technical indeed :) But good to know - thank you. Heard of the Kew Botanical gardens in the UK. I guess that site will likely be a good resource for other related info and will explore it some.

Kew also runs the Millennium Seed Bank, which is keeping seeds from all over the world in a nuclear-bomb-proof vault in a relatively remote bit of southern England -- tests they run there is where the seed viability data comes from.

http://www.kew.org/science-conservation/collections/millenni...

Correct, and we're not planning on storing them for a decade. We have the year they were acquired on each paper bag of them. Old ones will get removed, new ones will take their place.

Got it.

One important thing that everyone seems to be missing is a firearm. What good is prepping if all of your goods can easily be seized? This is in addition to a firearm's utility as a hunting instrument, which could prove useful if your supplies began to dwindle. Regardless, owning a firearm is prudent whether or not your prepping efforts come to fruition.

What makes you think that video-game-style shooting is going to deter the professionals that are attempting to seize your goods?

Professional, what?

What makes you think that you'll be up against these "professionals"?

If I was raiding homes, I would prioritise those that aren't shooting back at me.

Exactly. You don't need to run faster than a lion to escape it, you only need to run faster than the slowest of the group.

A "professional" would pick the best risk to reward. Someone shooting at you increases the risk fairly heavily.

I guess this prompts two questions:

1. Just what are you prepping for?

2. Are you willing to kill someone to protect your few months' supply of baked beans?

If all you have is a few month's supply of baked beans, and someone is trying to take it by force...

Seriously? I would use barricades, tazers, pepper spray, traps, smoke, fire, light, sound, and other means to dissuade the thief. Someone with their ears pounding from 125dB alarms, lungs choked with smoke, eyes streaked with pepper spray, skin on fire and body pulsing with 40,000 volts probably is not too concerned with my beans - if they could get past the steel-reinforced door.

People with guns don't seem to consider any other factor, besides that if the opponent has a gun, or can get yours away, you're not in a good defense position anyway. Guns are mainly useful for offense. Maybe that's why some preppers want them.

Your solution is to add multiple layers of complexity, which you then must rely upon?

The care and use of a gun (especially in combat, in close quarters and urban environments) adds multiple layers of complexity.

I would rely on multiple layers of complexity for defense, since that's how modern security design works. A gun is a single point of failure. A shelter or person full of extremely undesirable defenses is more reliable, less dangerous, and probably much easier to stock.

I agree that it is wise to avoid a single point of failure, and that multiple layers of security could prove quite useful. All that I am advocating is that a gun is just another viable layer of security.

Seriously? You've just changed the scenario completely.

If the person trying to steal my beans will go away if I say "stop I have a gun" or simply barricade my door then I'm sure as hell not shooting them. It's a last resort.

I am hoping to never need to use my emergency kit again.

Also, you should talk to cops about pepper spray, tasers, etc. and how often they fail.

And you should talk to cops about the effectiveness of attackers with blades against a trained officer with a holstered weapon closer than 21 feet. But both those and the pepper spray/taser fails are outliers, they are not the norm.

In a last resort, I don't want my attacker using my weapon against me, and if they can, I don't want it to be fatal. Which is why I don't carry knives for self defense, even though i'm trained in eskrima.

This is getting into absurd levels of hypotheticals so I'm tapping out.

> I would use barricades, tazers, pepper spray, traps, smoke, fire, light, sound, and other means to dissuade the thief

You have time for all that? Using a tazer or peper spray means your basically in well within pistol range and very close to hand-to-hand range. How exactly are you going to deploy your sound or smoke weapon?

> Guns are mainly useful for offense. Maybe that's why some preppers want them.

Guns are plenty useful for defense. Have you ever received any gun training?

Prepping for any scenario, prioritizing those that are most likely.

Who is to say the people in this hypothetical situation just want our "baked beans"?

Okay, so that question was too specific.

New question: is the reason one might want to have a gun in an emergency simply to be able to injure, maim or kill someone regardless of a specific reason?

If you say it's "for defense", remember that the concept is subjective; a robber being beaten for stealing may fear for their life and "defend" themselves. Specific reasons are less controversial and more practical.

It is really a simple matter.

I want to help maintain or improve the welfare of those I care about, regardless of scenario.

In order to achieve this outcome, it is usually sufficient to go to work, invest, and partake in mutually fulfilling rituals.

For the edge cases, a gun might be useful. And, in this thread, it is the edge cases that we are discussing.

I know people who were isolated by a large ice storm for several days. They took in neighbours who didn't have heat.

I can't speak for others, but I'm prepping for a 10-15 day breakdown of the system.

As a pragmatic matter, if society is in a situation where somebody is willing to die to get a hold of my month's supply of baked beans then I'll probably be willing to kill them. As a general principle, I donate my still long from expired canned food every year when I replace it fresh.

I love how you downplay the act of someone robbing you of your food supply which could very possibly lead to you and your families starvation.

Usually people help each other in cases of emergency (of course media is more interested in situations are not).

And even if it would be useful, the danger of owning a gun is higher than the likelihood of an emergency that you prepped for.

A scenario where prepping efforts come to fruition is far from "usual"; one's preconceptions about how others act should be reevaluated in the face of it. Again, this comes down to what you are prepping for.

Ok, but if you don't have training don't buy a gun. Home intruders have used blackouts as a cover and police services are often stretched. Still, owning a firearm does require some practice and training.

If you are going to buy one, then get either a shotgun or something with a lot of support[1]. Then you need to practice and understand the safety built into the gun and how to secure the weapon in your home.

1) this is why the AR-15 is so popular. a normal person can add accessories.

Or you can buy a gun and then get training before you start using it on your own.

Well yeah, but it would be helpful to get the training and work with someone to find which gun to buy. Getting training lets you fire a variety under supervision which will improve your chances of liking what you buy.

Point. I went pistol shopping with my uncle, but got a few days of training locally.

> Ok, but if you don't have training don't buy a gun.

The great thing about firearms is that they enable a relatively untrained person to adequately defend themselves against a trained attacker.

By all means get training - but don't let that stop you.

It shouldn't stop you, but having a gun you don't know how to shoot is pretty useless. Its not like basic training takes very long[1]. The local gun range generally has a pretty quick training program in place.

The other big thing is that allows you to select a gun that will be easy to fire for you. Buying a gun that is a pain to fire will mean little practice and problems.

1) much shorter than most learning to drive programs

[edit] an example http://www.freestategunrange.com/firearm-training/ their pistol is 2 hours (pepper spray is 3 hours ?!?)

This is terrible advice. I grew up with guns on the wall. My dad grew up on a farm, spent 26.5 years in the military, was awarded a purple heart. I grew up with gun culture and eating food dad killed himself.

If you are not actually going to become a hunter and seriously learn to shoot and become part of gun culture, don't go buy a gun "in case you need it, some day." That's utter insanity. It will just result in you helping to arm other people (that you don't want to arm, that will not be your protectors) and upping the stakes in the process.

I was a fine shot in my youth. I would be perfectly comfortable being around guns for the right reason, under the right circumstances. This is not it.

Instead of preparing yourself for some Mad Max bullshit scenario where you imagine you will play hero, having never done it before in your life, just work on continuing to improve supply chain, emergency response and so forth -- in other words, keep building a more reliable and more civilized civilization. That is your best bet right there.

If you actually are a part of gun culture and know what the fuck you are doing, I am not talking about you. So don't give me shit for telling ninnies to not do this.

Thanks.

This is absolutely hilarious. If you're not a professional hunter don't buy a gun, but instead fix the wrongs of society.

Well, I hope the person who follows your advice doesn't have an emergency situation in the next, oh, thousand years, because our current trajectory to a Star Trek utopia is lagging.

Can you clarify as to why owning a gun, as both a casual hobby and means of defense for unlikely scenarios, is "utter insanity"? And why do you believe gun owners view themselves as "prepping [...] for some Mad Max bullshit scenario"? Otherwise, using such language strongly discredits your already weak argument.

> Can you clarify as to why owning a gun, as both a casual hobby and means of defense for unlikely scenarios, is "utter insanity"?

not the op, but the way I read it is that unless you are heavily invested in gun culture, meaning that you have appropriate training and you shoot regularly to maintain skill, then owning a gun makes you and your loved ones less safe.

My understanding is that research shows that gun owners and their families are far, far more likely to be injured or killed by said firearm (accidentally, or intentionally) than they are to ever actually have the opportunity to use the gun for defence.

In that context the original statement makes sense.

Sure, that is a fair interpretation.

Given such an interpretation, I find it is more sensible to label such a person "misinformed", not suffering from "utter insanity". The latter phrase immediately shuts down, at least for me, any productive discourse.

You aren't looking for productive discourse. You are promoting a very dangerous idea and pulling a single phrase completely out of context as a cheap excuse to be dismissive.

I also used to pay accident claims. I have paid claims for dumbasses whose lack of gun safety practices maimed a child for life. I also denied one where his carelessness was so beyond the pale it was not covered.

I don't feel any need to "respect" your supposed right to promote this terrible idea.

If you want to prepare to be Mad Max, take up archery. A bow requires real skill. You won't be empowering some random jackass to kill you with your own weapon.

"research shows that gun owners and their families are far, far more likely to be injured or killed by said firearm"

I take it that you've never read such research yourself; that's a gross misinterpretation (the "said firearm" qualifier is outright false).

I'm neither for nor against gun ownership, but I am against blatant misrepresentation of the facts. The facts are:

- 1 : home invasion is incredibly rare

- 2 : injury and death by firearm, intentional or otherwise is incredibly high in the USA.

Professor Harold Pollack, who (among other things) co-directs the University of Chicago's Crime Lab: [1]

"...the everyday risks of injury, accident, domestic altercations, and suicide. The relative risks matter. And the fact is: lethal home invasions and burglaries are incredibly rare. You might not think so, since dramatic cases stick in your mind and tend to receive disproportionate press coverage. These cases are rare nonetheless."

"I had the Chicago police run the number on homicides. In 2011, precisely one homicide listed "burglary" as the motive. Nationwide, there are about 100 burglary-homicides every year. When you compare that to more than 18,000 gun suicides, the conclusions seem pretty obvious."

Enjoy your guns all you like, but be honest, they are a dangerous hobby and the statistical likelihood of you or a family member being harmed or killed by a gun the family owns is far higher than the chance that

- you will ever be the victim of a home invasion

- you will get the chance for a high noon shoot out with a "bad guy"

This is a well-cited article: http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-deaths-and-injuries-statistics/

[1] - http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/12/gun-viol...

[2] - http://www.ibtimes.com/accidental-gun-deaths-involving-child...

This discussion has veered away from the thread topic, but, regardless, thank you for presenting data. My major reservation here is that it seems a bit disingenuous to highlight suicide, while at the same time not including injury, rape, or loss of property that result from home invasions.

No worries :)

> seems a bit disingenuous to highlight suicide, while at the same time not including injury, rape, or loss of property that result from home invasions.

Nothing disingenuous about it.

In fact, statistically speaking, the situation is even worse. Introducing a gun into an already violent encounter significantly increases the risk of injury and death.

There is tonnes of evidence to support this. Here is one, very specific study that indirectly confirms exactly this.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/249715169_Have_Gun_...

And here's another fascinating study PREDICTORS OF FIREARM USE AND EFFECTS OF WEAPONRY ON VICTIM INJURY IN VIOLENT CRIME

http://etd.fcla.edu/CF/CFE0002722/Libby_Nicholas_E_200908_Ph...

It's a long read, but well worth it if you are really interested in what the literature has to say about the often surprising ways in which guns affect the outcomes of violent crime.

And finally here's a pretty honest take on the matter from a comedian. NSFW for language https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0

The humor may not be to your taste, but the points made are fair

  Here is one, very specific study that indirectly confirms exactly this.

Interviews of 100 incarcerated felons (with a specific incentive to discourage gun ownership), without any actual data (even anecdotal), confirms nothing. Did you bother to read any of your quoted research before cutting-and-pasting?

so you didn't like that source, did you bother to read any of the other many sources I supplied? Guess not since they don't support your world view.

Like i said I'm not anti gun. But saying I own a gun for protection is kind of like saying "I BASE jump to stay fit". No you don't. You do it because it's dangerous and fun. Guns are the same.

I wish more gun owners were intellectually honest and just admitted that they like their dangerous hobby in spite of the fact that

- Their chance of being a victim of violent crime such as home invasion or car jacking is unbelievably tiny

- The chance that they or a family member will be killed or injured by a family owned gun utterly dwarfs the chance that said gun will actually prevent violent crime

These are facts borne out 100% by data.

from [1], which gets most of it's data from government collected statistics. These are stats just for accidental injury!:

- "In 2010, unintentional firearm injuries caused the deaths of 606 people.18"

- "From 2005-2010, almost 3,800 people in the U.S. died from unintentional shootings.19"

- "Over 1,300 victims of unintentional shootings for the period 2005–2010 were under 25 years of age.20"

- "People of all age groups are significantly more likely to die from unintentional firearm injuries when they live in states with more guns, relative to states with fewer guns. On average, states with the highest gun levels had nine times the rate of unintentional firearms deaths compared to states with the lowest gun levels.21"

- "A federal government study of unintentional shootings found that 8% of such shooting deaths resulted from shots fired by children under the age of six.22"

Again, from [2], "Nationwide, there are about 100 burglary-homicides every year.". 100 homicides for the ENTIRE USA related to burglary!! And i'd speculate that a significant number of these deaths were due to victims escalating the situation by drawing a gun!

That means you are 6 times as likely to accidentally kill yourself than be the victim of a murder during a burglary.

[1] http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-deaths-and-injuries-statistics/

[2] http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/12/gun-viol...

Yet again, you dodge the question, and yet again, you refer to media articles that quote no actual data.

I read each of the "studies" you refer to in the years they were released, and many, many more. I've been studying criminology for 23 years.

Repeating the "I'm not anti-gun" mantra whilst referring only to anti-RKBA sources (and misquoting those) reinforces intellectual dishonesty.

And as for "Their chance of being a victim of violent crime such as home invasion or car jacking is unbelievably tiny", you really haven't examined the data. There are dozens of carjackings and home invasions (aka "hot burglary" - entering when residents are present) each month in the Bay Area alone. If you rely only on media reports, they are typically reported only as "burglaries".

What is actually "unbelievably tiny" is one's odds of being killed by an "assault weapon", yet phony claims to the contrary drive the media narrative. Drownings excluding those in swimming pools exceed homicide by "assault weapon" in the U.S.

> There are dozens of carjackings and home invasions (aka "hot burglary" - entering when residents are present) each month in the Bay Area alone

and how many of those result in murder? Or do you believe that using lethal force to protect property is ok? If this is the case then we have no common ground.

My position is that being scared and losing your TV isn't grounds for ending a burglar's life.

  do you believe that using lethal force to protect property is ok?

When an armed party has broken into a home, knowing residents are present, only a fool would assume that only personal property is at risk. There's a fundamental difference in home invasion from, say, breaking into an unoccupied vehicle.

> only a fool would assume that only personal property is at risk

this is a classic example of emotion clouding better judgement. A more rational approach would be to look at the data:

- In 2010, there were an estimated 2,159,878 burglaries [1]

- In 2013 there were 94 murders associated with burglary

This is a 0.00435% chance that you will be killed in the course of a burglary. I'm sure this number will go down dramatically as long as you don't grab a gun ;)

[1] https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-...

You made a very specific claim ("research shows that gun owners and their families are far, far more likely to be injured or killed by said firearm"), then when called on it, you threw out a number of quotes (from specifically anti-RKBA sources) unrelated to your claim.

That false claim is often quoted from the Kellerman study, but an examination of his data (it took years for him to release it) revealed that in almost all such homicides, it was a gun that the intruder brought with him (predominantly male) and not one the victim owned. (Kates, 2001) The residents' gun could have been locked up in the basement, and Kellerman counted it anyway.

Or, do you have different research in mind that supports that claim?

you've selectively quoted ;)

what I said was

"gun owners and their families are far, far more likely to be injured or killed by said firearm (accidentally, or intentionally) than they are to ever actually have the opportunity to use the gun for defence"

There's really no need to muddy the waters with politics. The raw data speaks for itself :

- violent home invasions leading to murder are exceedingly rare

- accidental gun injury or death is sadly commonplace

I've already supplied many sources, so i won't repeat the stats that plainly lay out this reality

  what I said was...

No, what you said you preceded with "My understanding( is that research shows* that...", acknowledging that you hadn't actually done the research.

  The raw data speaks for itself

Then why won't you present any? Why can't you support this claim you keep repeating?

   accidental gun injury or death is sadly commonplace

Nobody has questioned that.

dude, c'mon :|

The data I've presented:

- Nationwide (USA), there are about 100 burglary-homicides every year.

- In 2010, unintentional firearm injuries caused the deaths of 606 people

Feel free to confirm the figures for yourself.

  Nationwide, there are about 100 burglary-homicides every year.

Repeating: your source is?

As a criminologist you should be on top of this kind of info ;)

Here it is for you:

From the FBI[1]:

2013: Total Murders 12,253, during burglary: 94

From the CDC[2]:

2013: 505 deaths due to accidental/negligent discharge of a firearm + 281 deaths due to firearms-use with "undetermined intent"

[1]https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-...

[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_Sta...

unless you are heavily invested in gun culture, meaning that you have appropriate training and you shoot regularly to maintain skill

I wouldn't call that being "heavily invested" in a "culture." That skill level is better categorized as a basic competency in a specialized domain and we do a disservice to act like there is some HUGE hurdle to being a responsible gun owner. It's actually a pretty LOW bar for all but the disinterested passerby.

Why does everything have to be so damn siloed? I don't belong to a "boating culture" for learning how to operate a boat and owning a jetski. There's no "woodworking culture" that I belong to just because I can show up in a shop and start ripping boards. Both of those require serious safety training too. But they're not my primary hobbies, or something I choose to socialize around.

> Instead of preparing yourself for some Mad Max bullshit scenario where you imagine you will play hero, having never done it before in your life, just work on continuing to improve supply chain, emergency response and so forth -- in other words, keep building a more reliable and more civilized civilization. That is your best bet right there.

I agree with this in part. Firearms proficiency is a skill that you need to acquire and maintain if you want to be able to use a gun to defend yourself and your family without accidentally shooting them. This is a skill you can acquire with classes, but merely having the pistol/shotgun won't make you safer automatically.

Absolutely. Some people could legitimately view it as not worth the time investment.

Thank you for being the first reply that didn't wildly twist out of shape what I actually said.

Well said. Owning a firearm is a serious commitment and responsibility. You describe well the dedication it takes for a gun to be a useful tool and not just a hazard in the home.

Choosing the right weapon for your needs is not just a trip to Cabela's and I'll take the shiny one. I like what you say about supply chain. Even if as a novice you manage to kill an animal for food, do you have any idea how to process it for safe consumption. There are less resource and skill intensive ways of hunting (trapping, snaring) that can be successful. When someone says, "should I buy this gun?", it's a bit like when someone says, "should I buy this computer?" Well, it all depends what you're trying to do.

Long story short. Great post.

A cousin won a live turkey one thanksgiving. Dad killed it. Mom prepped it for freezing. Most Americans would not have known how at that time and these days many people no longer really cook. They microwave everything.

> I feel it's next in my list after getting the tax-efficient index savings going.

I have to admit that I chuckled a bit at the juxtaposition here. The concerns are both valid, yet they are preparations for two somewhat exclusive situations.

Isn't that the point of diversification?

Exactly. The risk-averse, in particular, should consider and plan for the full distribution of possible future circumstances, the less likely of which will sound far-fetched. (Of course)

This is why rich, old white men, with plenty to lose, are the most common preppers. (In greater proportion than their share of the populace.)

Actually I think it is some rich whites, countryside whites but not middle class city whites with the exception of Mormons and Jews for cultural and historical reasons.

The great irony is that the people in the cities surrounded by lots of competing mouths and only a few days supply of food at the shops are also the least worried about starving to death.

I keep a weeks worth of freeze dried food rations/MREs, a couple of charged USB powerbricks, flashlights and batteries, body wash wipes, a basic bathroom kit. As I'm writing this I realized I don't have any water. I need to buy water and gas and put some stuff in my car.

Anyway, in 2008 I lost power for 15 days during hurricane Ike. It was an interesting scenario I'd never been in or considered. I still had to go to work 30 minutes away (Houston) which consumed gas, having to go to work during this might sound bad; but it was the ONLY place in miserably hot September in Houston where I could charge my phone and sit in an air conditioner because we had power. To buy gas I had to find a gas station and they all had insane lines (hours) if you could even find a gas station that was open AND had gas. All of those gas stations were 30+ minutes away from my house. Nothing in my part of the city (Heights, which is nearby downtown) was open at all. This might not have been an issue for some, but I had lived in the city for about a month and knew nothing but my neighborhood and now I couldn't use GPS or look up anything unless I was at work.

I had never really considered that some emergency like that would happen and that there still had to remain some normalcy of life (like waking up and going to work). I actually had to have my friend mail me food/items a few times because I was still able to get packages, I just had no idea when power in my area would be restored.

It was definitely an eye opener. Also property theft was incredibly rampant. There were times I had to sit on my balcony and watch my neighbors places because so many people left town and looters were looking for places with no people present. If you saw the popular "You loot I shoot :(" picture of the destroyed house from Houston during Ike, that was a block from my house.

I remember after about a 10 days the CVS down the block from me opened up as I was driving by. I ran in and left with about 10 boxes of Gushers and other random fruit chew type foods because all of their perishables were bad and candy was all that was left. But at least I had something to eat.

edit: TC Jester/Washington you loot I shoot image; https://xnomad.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/17-09-08_1931.jpg...

The funny thing is..we lost power during Hurricane IKE too.... the jetstream went straight north then dropped down into cincy/dayton Ohio... we were without power for two weeks.. it's the only time I ever remember being touched by a Hurricane in land-locked Ohio. The nearest ocean is 15 hours away.

Ouch. I moved from Florida to Houston, so I was used to hurricanes and didn't even care. I remember watching the news and that guy in the bear costume dancing on Galveston beach before my power went out for the 2-3 weeks. The power went out and I just hopped on my phone and used it until the battery died. No concern at all for power conservation or anything.

Little did I know the entire TX power infrastructure is above ground and just ready to be decimated by wind.

https://youtu.be/JLykQrCLKE8

Your mention of GPS just reminded me, there is an app "maps.me" which allows (requires I think) you to preload the maps on a state by state basis. It can do turn by turn navigation on a smartphone without a network connection. It can also do a search for i.e. gas stations nearby.

There is also OpenStreetMaps which fits easily on an SD card.

Having lived on big fault lines my entire life (Salt Lake City and Seattle), I have been trained from kindergarten on about what to do in an earthquake.

In the closet of my 7th floor apartment I have 1 small-ish backpack full of a handful of useful things like a crank weather radio and some flashlights (all bought on clearance over the years). I also have an orange home depot bucket full of non-perishable, high-calorie food I got off Amazon. And a few cases of water. It takes up about 15% of my closet. I bet I could make the food/water last for a month if I had to.

So the answer is yes! But not everyone did earthquake drills four times a year during 12 years of public school... I am 33.

What does your food supply consist of? MREs, or things like peanut butter?

Similar to MRE, I guess. I honestly haven't eaten one. I got them via the advice of a sorta crazy friend of mine who has a bunker full of similar things (and guns) on his farmland.

We keep an emergency "go bag" in the front hall closet with tools necessary for basic survival. Included in that are 6 weeks worth of MREs for the family, water filtration system, water storage (fill it in a tub), rope, shovel, saw, first-aid kits, blankets, and so on.

Whatever the situation may be, whether natural, political, or zombie-related, we can grab that and hit the road knowing we have the basics.

How big/heavy is that bag? As someone that doesn't know much about this topic, that seems like an enormous amount of food!

My bag weighs 35 lbs. It's two weeks of food for two people, 3 litres of water and a bunch of stuff like a radio, flashlight, water purification kit etc.

It's about 30-35lbs. It's kind of shaped like a bowling bag. It's not designed to strap on my back and go hiking, but to toss in the car. The MREs are pretty tiny and last about 5 years. We refresh them every now and again. Peace of mind doesn't cost all that much.

Here's a write-up I did on the extended set, including camping gear, dutch oven, etc. It's not all part of the go bag. https://blog.tomasino.org/zombie-survival-kit.html

Interesting. Before Y2K (Year 2000) I stocked up on a good amount of packaged food with some shelf life, and some minimal tools etc. Turned out that nothing major happened, either to computer systems or the world. Surprisingly low effect compared to what was imagined or predicted.

There was a lot of of money spent on remediating and testing computer systems during the 90's.

Governments had plans within plans and conducted drills. Shareholders asked CEO's what their Y2K plans were during AGM's.

Not surprising that the effect was low.

To this day, I wonder if our over-preparedness for Y2K is why we are so complacent about climate change.

>There was a lot of money spent on remediating and testing computer systems during the 90's.

Yes I know. I was part of one such remediation project for a large client for a while, though not directly involved.

> Not surprising that the effect was low.

It was known that the fixes done would work. The concern was about steps possibly not taken in some random systems like hardware or infrastructure ones.

I live in ruralish North Dakota so yes as having less that a week's worth of food in the winter is pretty poor planning. Get some stuff that you can eat without power. Plenty of places sell kits. Get something to purify water and get a radio and flash light (or lantern) with a dynamo and get a solar USB charger. Power bricks for USB are great.

If you own a home, get a Honda generator and keep some extra gas around (pour in car to rotate).

1) 3 days emergency food and water supply

2) Slowly building up a emergency cash fund. Every time I take money from the ATM, I peel off $5-10 and deposit in this fund.

3) Have financial, insurance documents with the emergency kit to be evacuated with me if required.

4) Hodge-podge of other things like caffeine pills, clean underwear, anti-inflammatory meds, feminine hygiene products, safety gloves, etc.

5) Offsite data back up for complete destruction of technical gear.

6) Recovery plan for loss of living accommodation & technology stored 1,000 miles away in my parents' fireproof safe.

7) Full estate plan in case I'm dead.

These are just some of the things I've got in place.

I don't have anything prepared. It doesn't seem necessary, either when I lived in the UK or now in Denmark. About the only natural disaster in either country is flooding, and that's usually a slow affair.

Does anyone in boring-no-disasters Europe make any emergency preparations?

I get the impression half the Americans here can't wait for some disaster; a chance to prove their mettle and lead their family into the mountains to survive for a week on army rations and purified water, while shooting wild bears and anyone who approaches.

I do. As a European you should be aware that when we go into meltdown, it is all the way.

My people were starved to death twice in the 1800s, depopulating the island to half of its original size. It still hasn't recovered to its original size.

Then in the 1900s we had two of the largest wars in human history.

I have no reason to be confident that the 2000s won't suffer similar deprivations.

I don't do any prepping myself, but I do not dismiss those who do. All of our systems are unbelievably complex and interconnected that I do not think it would take that much for things to go sour quickly.

Seems like the cause would be something that initially appears trivial. Less Zombie apocalypse or rogue government, more like infrastructure hack, big and sudden recession or drastic oil shortage. In the oil example, much of the systems of society would be put under sever stress. Perhaps we could endure it without any societal breakdown, but it would be tough keeping society running with mass food, transport and power shortages. Our governments make extensive plans to deal with these situations.

The stability of even first world countries is not so high as we might assume. "Every nation is about nine meals from anarchy"

> Our governments make extensive plans to deal with these situations.

I have a decent trust that these plans are appropriate and sufficient, and that if I needed to make my own preparations, I'd be aware of it.

"In the European Union, according to Council Directive 68/414/EEC of 20 December 1968, all 28 member states are required to have a strategic petroleum reserve within the territory of the E.U. equal to at least 90 days of average domestic consumption"

Some government sites in Britain suggest an emergency "grab bag", but the contents is minimal compared to the American versions -- some cereal and chocolate bars, for example [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_strategic_petroleum_res...

[2] https://www.barnet.gov.uk/citizen-home/environmental-health/...

Thanks for the links, was not aware of either.

> I have a decent trust that these plans are appropriate and sufficient

I am not so trusting. I think the failure of western financial regulations in 2008 is a decent example of how sheer complexity shatters existing safeguards. I am sure they have done their best to account for these sort of scenarios, but the real world is far more complex than a model. I do see where you are coming from though.

  Our governments make extensive plans to deal with these situations

Really? Look how long it's taken multiple layers of government (especially the Federal government) to deal with the Flint water crisis or the Animas river disaster... despite having no disaster-introduced transportation or resource barriers.

I certainly think they make plans thinking it will help. Whether or not their plans are any good, especially in regard to supreme complexity, is my point. I have serious reservations.

Look at Gloucestershire UK a few years ago. They had flooding. That overcame flood defences at a water treatment plant, and that caused havoc for weeks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/gloucestershire/floods/

some places went without water for some time. 135,000 homes went without water for upto 17 days. Each person requires 10 litres of clean water per day.

http://www.floodprobe.eu/partner/assets/documents/Floodprobe...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United_Kingdom_floods

Some bits of the planning failed - the water treatment plant should not have flooded, for example. But some did work - vulnerable people who needed medication mostly got it; and people did get 10 litres of clean water each day.

But it's that event that made me keep some bottles of water, and to keep some stocks of tinned food.

Certainly depends on what you count as "disaster", but depending on where you are flooding, multi-day power outages, multi-day interruptions of fresh-water supply, ... all can happen. I yearly get flyers on what to do if the closest nuclear plant goes wrong. Italy just had a major earthquake.

Even if we assume the support infrastructure works properly (=just one localized disaster), having your own supplies could mean a lot of difference in how you get through the crisis:

Can you take care of an injury if medical help is going to take many hours to get to you (or if you are unable to even notify anybody who could help)?

Do you have to get to somewhere in the hope of getting some minimal supplies (water, some emergency food) or can you stay somewhere relatively comfortable and safe? Large cities might turn dangerous relatively quickly.

Can you have warm food despite the power being out the last few days?

Are you going to have a full set of warm clothes/medication/documents for everybody if you have to leave in a hurry?

We have fruit trees and berry bushes, the produce of which ends up canned and jarred and dried. We bake our own bread and as such generally have about 30kg of wheat flour in storage. In the barn there is about 100kg of oats, meant for horses but edible to humans. Add to that another 20-30kg of rice and pasta and we're set for carbohydrates. Cheese and eggs and (extruded) soy provide proteins (my wife is vegetarian so we generally don't eat meat, even though I'm the one mostly responsible for food preparation) but the forest is full of additional protein (deer, elk, boar, etc.) ready for the taking in case of emergency. Water comes from our own dug well which is not dependent on electricity. The house is heated using a wood-burning stove and a wood-burning cooking stove, also not dependent on electricity.

If power fails - which it does quite often here in the Swedish woods - we can live more or less like we're used to. If the power failure lasts longer than a few days we'd have to empty the freezers (containing fish and some venison, vegetarian wife notwithstanding - Bambi got stuck in the fencing so what could we do?) and salt the contents. Yes, we have a 30kg bag of (road) salt handy for those occasions, it doubles as dishwasher salt.

I don't consider what we do 'prepping', just common sense in that we reduce the amount of external dependencies to a minimum.

Someone mentioned guns but failed to mention his domicile. I assume that to be the USA given the insistence on having such. Sweden also has a fairly high number of guns (a bit more than 30 per 100 inhabitants) but the USA is in another league (more than 110 per 100 inhabitants) [1]. Most guns in Sweden are hunting rifles, the number of hand guns is relatively small. A hunting rifle is good for hunting but not that useful for threatening a group of people as the first shot fired will most likely also be the last. In the USA the number of hand guns is a lot higher and with that it is more likely to be confronted by someone carrying such, possibly necessitating a defence against this threat. Having a gun is not the same as being able and willing to use a gun. Having a gun but not being willing or able to use it carries the potential of having said gun being used against you. In that case you'd be better of without one.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_c...

Here's a site published by the NZ government. The advice seems fairly reasonable.

http://getthru.govt.nz/how-to-get-ready

North Dakota DOT https://www.dot.nd.gov/divisions/maintenance/winter-preparat...

North Dakota Department of Emergency Services https://www.nd.gov/des/get/severe-winter-weather/

The photo on the last link tends to point out the problem

[edit: you haven't truly driven until you've attached a red flag to the front of your car (at an angle pointing forward) to warn people at a 4 way that there is a car]

I evacuated a family of 4 for Katrina, handled antiterrorism for an aircraft carrier after 9/11, and deployed to Japan for Fukushima.

This will not be a 'canned food' sort of catastrophe. That's sillyness. People on this thread haven't thought through real catastrophes. Democracy works when we work together. Go talk to people. Make friends. That's what you're going to need. That's what we allneed.

This will get downvoted into oblivion, but here is some advice:

- Don't talk about prepping openly, you're making yourself into a target if things go south.

- If you're going to prep make sure you have firearms, or don't bother. Know how to use them or you'll just be prepping for someone else.

> If you're going to prep make sure you have firearms, or don't bother.

That's foolish. Most scenarios you prep for (eg extended power outage) do not require firearms. That is an extreme situation.

Isn't the secrecy enough? I don't see the need for a firearm if nobody knows you've been prepping.

Personally I have some canned food that I just don't find all that appealing, which I could eat if I needed to. Probably enough to get through a week. What I don't have, but I'd like to have, is a reserve of fresh water. A plastic 5 gallon carboy would be enough. I also have my hiking, camping, and skiing equipment which I could use inside my apartment if the heat went out in the winter for an extended period ... although after a day at -20 I'd probably start burning books and furniture. I also try to keep at least 1000 cash on hand at all times, and try to refill my meds when I still have 1 week left.

The easiest thing to do is to get in the habit of buying an extra can of food every time you go grocery shopping. After a few months of this, you'll have a decent stockpile for emergencies.

....and be a smart person and throw away what is expired. Check regularly.

   ....and be a smart person and throw away what is expired

I understand what you mean but the advice to 'throw away what is expired' is just plain silly. Throw away what has spoiled, use the rest. Make sure to rotate your storage - first in first out - and use what you rotate out. Expiry dates are theoretical limits, not absolute cut-offs. This goes for not only food but also for medicines, most pharmaceuticals work just fine after the expiry date [1].

[1] http://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/drug-expiratio...

I had a friend who used a couple of cans in his emergency stash a while after the expire date. He then had two problems. It does pay to look after what you stash. If nothing else just rotate stuff so you don't run into problems.

Unless the seal is broken (and then you'd really know), old canned food is OK to eat. It might taste a bit dull, but it won't harm you.

At least in Europe, canned food is labelled "best before [date]" rather than "use by [date]".

You might want to check out /r/preppers, they're generally rational https://www.reddit.com/r/preppers/

Evaluate the risks for where you live and have the appropriate supplies. In the Bay Area, for example, you should be ready for a large earthquake. You should also be ready for common scenarios such as extended utility outages.

I do a minimal amount of prepping. I always have 1 weeks worth of bottled drinking water. I try to always have one weeks worth of tinned food. I'm thinking of buying MRE style long lasting self heating packs.

I have a couple of boxes of candles, and a couple of boxes of matches.

I have a very basic fist aid kit.

My county flooded a few years ago and it caused a bit of havoc, even for houses that were untouched by floods.

People could learn a lot from Mormons. They haven't forgotten the importance of planning for survival. In the US the 3 main disaster scenarios with high likelihood are:

1. New Madrid earthquake. If a 7.9 magnitude earthquake (same as quake in New Zealand today) hit's the New Madrid fault quite a few links between east and west would be severed that could take months to repair. Up to 15 nuclear reactors would go offline possibly permanently. This would cause long term power outages on a wide scale.

2. A Carrington level CME.

3. The end of the petrodollar slavery system.

Any of these events would cause major and probably permanent lifestyle changes for the survivors. Having food and water is important but having a plan to get more food and water is more important. Having a gun is useful not only for self defense but also so you have an easy way out should it come to that.

Preparing for natural disasters and emergencies is a reasonable facet of life strategy. Disaster preparedness can be useful when more conventional strategies for dealing with life needs (education, a good career, saving) are temporarily less viable in the face of extreme conditions. I say this because prepping is part of a life plan not the entirety of a life plan.

Many of the lists that exist are useful places to start. 3 days of food and water, utility shut off tools, flashlights (don't forget the extra batteries) and the like are good basics. Prescription medications are often overlooked in preparations. Waste disposal and sanitation can also be issues if one has to shelter in place in an urban setting.

This post could turn quickly into a TLDR nightmare so let me throw out a few more specialized items I like that are beyond the basics:

1. Auerbach's Wilderness Medicine. This massive two volume text is the gold standard for medicine in austere environments. It comes with online access which makes wading through it much easier.

2. Powerfilm solar collapsible solar panel. The US military uses these panels. They are well made and durable. They are expensive but it's better to have one of these that works instead of a cheapy that doesn't.

3. Multi-tool and sturdy folding knife. The ability to cut and shape things as well as apply torque can be extremely invaluable.

4. There are a lot of engineers on this site. A basic HAM license is easy to get and in some areas HF is a reasonable alternative to modern networks.

5. A friend who went through Katrina as a surgeon at a level 1 trauma center said sat phones lose utility quickly as media outlets tend to lock up bandwidth.

6. Plastic sheeting - A few rolls of 8-10 mil plastic sheeting

7. MSR Dromedary Bags - Love them. You can go a long time without food. Water not so much.

Don't forget your brain. Lots of smart people here on HN. Think about contingencies. How will I leave if there if there is no gasoline? Where will I meet my loved ones if we are separated? What do I have that will be valuable if for some period of time cash is not so valuable? Are my preparations easy to access and have I practiced with any items that require skill such as fire building or water purification?

Don't get lost in the rabbit hole. List the conditions you are realistically likely to encounter and plan for those. If you live in Hays, Kansas plan for tornadoes not terrorism.

Just out of curiosity, what percentage of preppers do you think would share their horde of supplies with their neighbors?

How many of them would stick around and volunteer to help others in need rather than run away to their shelters to save themselves?

One thing that's really useful is Weck Jars[0]. They're reusable glass jars with a rubber seal you put food in, then you boil them in water. This disinfects the food, and creates a hermetic seal. From what I've heard they've found Weck jars that were decades old, and when opened, they were still edible (even though taste suffered a little). They're also generally handy, because with some jars and a large stockpot for canning, you can have any dish within 15 minutes (cook noodles, drain, add butter to pot, add noodles back in, pour in 1 jar of goulash).

Disclaimer: They were founded in my home village of 150 people, so I'm a bit of a Weck shill.

Then there's staples that keep for a while. Rice, Beans, Flour, dry Noodles. Special mention to potatoes, which are delicious and rich in Vitamin C. Salt is also very handy.

Then, cans you can buy pre-canned. Sauerkraut, Pickles, etc.

Without using too much space, this can easily last you a month or two, and you can set up a revolving pantry. Most important, it adds convenience even without a disaster occuring.

Water prep is something that you generally don't have to do till there is a disaster. It's prudent to keep around some water disinfecting tablets or a jug of Chlorine. Interesting fact, if you're in a pinch, your hot water heater will contain up to 50 gallons of potable water. Shut off the inflow valve and open a faucet to access it.

Medical supplies are also something to think about. Antibiotics, gauze, suturing kits, disinfectant.

Tools. A full set of tools may come in handy in case of supply-chain breakdown. They're also handy in case of other breakdowns.

Power. You could look at getting a small gasoline powered generator. Or installing solar with some kind of powerbank. If you're going for full off-grid power, cooling&heating generally use the most power. Ditch the AC, install ceiling fans, replace your fridge with a chest freezer and a brewing thermometer.

Arms. You got yourself a gun, yo I'm living in these times behind enemy lines...decide whether that's something you need.

Knowledge. Go buy some manuals, keep them as physical copies or on an e-reader with a solar charger, or both. The entirety of the English Wikipedia can be compressed down to about 55GB[1]. Go take some courses.

[0]http://www.weckjars.com/products.php [1]http://wiki.kiwix.org/wiki/Main_Page

What about oxidation (if you aren't doing something like nitrogen flushin)?

Flavor may suffer after a year, or 10. But there's no bacteria left to go through with the usual rotting process.

Order some boxes of MREs. I think most people in the world should have have a month's supply or more.

One important thing to note is the shelf life on MRE's vary both by type and storage conditions. Anyone new to this idea needs to do their research.

If there were ever a prolonged problem I'd be worried about the shelf life of medicines.

There are two problems for preparation. We are typically restricted in the quantity we can buy and they often don't have a long shelf life.

I myself have enough MREs for about one month. I get mine from mealkitsupply.com and hotpackmeals.co.uk. These are self heating ration packs which is nice if the electric cuts out.

The mealkits last for five years, probably ten years to be honest. I've seen people eat MREs from the Korean War and they were perfectly good to eat.

The hotpacks last only three years, but are quite nice to eat and I tend to use them up as I go for lunches.

Your point on medicine is a good one. I was only referring to keeping your stock of supplies maintained, rather than whether they would last through an actual use situation. Every five years is probably a good time to replace your stores.

What's a good source?

MountainHouse.com is a great source. Oddly enough there's a pretty big MRE review/testing community on youtube if you want to do some research and pick out specific things.

The last time I bought some I got them from mealkitsupply.

http://www.mealkitsupply.com/MRE/US/

1200 kcal per pack, 12 pack for $130, lasts five years (probably much longer if you store properly).

The rest I got from hotpackmeals.

http://www.hotpackmeals.co.uk/

360 kcal per pack, 24 pack for £114.00, lasts three years.

The flameless ration heaters the MRE companies supply are awesome.

You definitely don't want to eat MREs every day for a month. You can't only have MREs.

Just ask any guy who was stuck in some shithole in their service about what happens after you eat MREs for 2-3 days strait.

Commercial MREs should be fine, not military ones.

I took only ex-military MRE entrees with me as meals for six days of hiking in the wilderness. I'm alive, but I'm never doing that again. Yuck!

It's not so much what goes in, or what comes out.... more what doesn't come out.

MREs are for combat situations. Lots of the things you need to stay awake, run, fight, and survive. Not much of the stuff you need to live a day to day with.

Don't worry, I'd supplement my diet from my garden.

I think it is worth having a root cellar. I was always impressed as a young boy by Badger in Wind and the Willows. The illustrations in the books used to show all the sacks of potatoes and onions he had and I remember being very impressed by his hideaway. Pretty sure he had a shotgun as well.

You believe commercial MREs are better than military ones?

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