P.S: The answer is that H1-B's are virtually locked into their jobs and have no negotiating power. Give them that and American employees will look magically more attractive.
* We don't need to give H1-B guest workers negotiating power.
* We need to end H1-B and send the guest workers home.
* We need to replace the guest workers with American workers.
Access to jobs, and the economic mobility accompanied by it, is a bedrock social justice issue in America.
It is an enormous social injustice to make American workers compete with foreign nationals for jobs. Frankly, I don't see how it's possible read about American workers having to train their foreign worker replacements and not see it as anything less than deeply and tragically wrong.
I know that the required job searches prior to utilizing the H-1B program are basically perfunctory. I know that the workers under the program are abused. I know it depresses wages for American workers overall.
Its funny, I generally despise the term "social justice," but, you're dead on here.
We'll definitely have to agree to disagree on Trump, but you and I do have common ground in our belief that access to employment is an issue of social justice, and that the H1-B program has been abused and corrupted in a way that has created profoundly unjust outcomes for Americans.
The United States already has a program for legal immigration, right? Why do we even need H1-B?
H-1B is part of the immigration path for many immigrants, since it's a dual intent visa. There's a couple paths to immigrating on a permanent basis to the US, H-1B to green card to citizenship being one of them.
I'm pretty convinced you don't have solid understanding about inner workings of immigration and H1-B. You just have some hatred against this visa.
Most of jobs holded by h1-b candidates are temporary and their ranks stand at the very bottom of the food chain. These jobs last not more than few months and in very rare cases 1-2 years. So, they are the first ones to leave the company before the permanent ones.
H1-b candidates are very expensive to hire. Although, they do get paid very low.
Now, please go and educate five other people so that we can end this BS propaganda.
Jobs are a bedrock social justice issue in the United States. You're free to characterize me remarks however you like, but I'm pretty sure that the fact that 60-80% of H1-B visas are issued to citizens of only two countries is a sign that the program has been hopelessly corrupted.
Those two countries are also highly populated in the world so the numbers are proportional
Huh. I don't feel horribly underpaid. I'm pretty sure I'm making about the same as my American citizen peers.
both this and parent comment who mentioned he is gay.
both pretty much saying, as long as it does not affect us and our group, let us disrupt the lives of people who came here legally and have paid taxes etc and throw them back.
its not that you are saying change the policy for new guys coming in who can then decide whether to come in- you actively want to disrupt the lives of people you probably see and work with everyday, maybe go to happy hour with.
who came here and have built a life with some long hard path to a greencard implied when they chose to take the H1 path.
today this group, tomorrow another, then the next - attack the non-enfranchised and weak, weaken the next group, attack.
and so it has begun...
i am a bit nervous of having typed this out.
fear.
Who exactly is crawling out of the woodwork? People who are against H1-B because it creates profoundly unjust outcomes for American workers?
When H1-B is discussed on HN, a lot of the participants who are American citizens have written a lot of negative remarks about the program. Are you suggesting that all these people are closet racists as well?
H1-B is unpopular program with American workers because access to jobs is one of the most important elements of social mobility in the US and a hell of a lot of American workers just happen to believe that they should not have to compete with foreign nationals for economic opportunity.
I've said it many times in this thread: Access to jobs is a bedrock social justice issue in America.
No one here has made a single personal attack or nasty remark to anyone else.
Your remarks make you sound like a proper fascist, and you really should apologize.
just answer this - is this what you propose: a H1b guy had been here 8 years, greencard is in process 4 years, scheduled to come in 2 more.. you want him fired and sent back home right away?
btw, i run a business. when you hire and do it right - you hire for value produced and then consider cost of worker. as a consumer you want the best prices. but you are not comfortable with how the market will ensure it delivers your want, especially in your field of work.
crawling out of woodwork refers to the closet trump supporters who did not speak up until now, there are plenty and you will see plenty more. like the guy whose comment i replied to originally. 47% and trending upwards.
trump has used extremely skilled techniques to mobilize crowds and influence people - even very intelligent people. he will continue to do so, since mob momentum is very very hard to fight against.
whether you realize it or no, its not about specific issues anymore because each of them is small by itself. you said you are gay, so just wait your turn after the H1b dudes, mexicans working fields producing our food and a few others are dealt with.
No, that's not how paraphrasing works. Rewriting my remarks in that fashion is called twisting someone's words. I said H1-B should end and we should send the guest workers home.
>> just answer this - is this what you propose: a H1b guy had been here 8 years, greencard is in process 4 years, scheduled to come in 2 more.. you want him fired and sent back home right away?
Yes, but he can stay long enough to train his American replacement.
Is this unjust? It's far less unjust than making American citizens train their replacements and then sending them to the unemployment line.
- A law is enacted that says that H1b workers must leave US after training their replacement.
- One of the big five companies puts out a requirement for a Software engineer with 10 years of experience who is also a US US citizen.
Currently, there are about a thousand job openings for software engineers with 10 years of experience in all big 5 companies combined that they are not able to fill, so a change is law is not required for this and won't do any good here.
- So say they relax the rules and say anyone can apply and will get trained.
- A laid off steel plant worker applies for the position of a software engineer.
- Once hired a H1b worker starts training him for the job that he was doing. Which might take a lot of years. Nothing against steel plant workers, they are just as honest and hardworking as any engineer. It would have taken me the same number of years to be good at steel manufacturing, just the transition takes time.
Now if I am any of the top 5 companies I am thinking, it will take a decade for us to hire these replacements and make the transition, and they are right. So what do they do, they come up with their own plan. They send that H1b worker home (india/china) and say 'you know what work from home' or they send him to a third country like Ireland or Canada and get him to work from there. Effectively its a sum negative for US economy because a tax paying job has now left US.
This is a fantasy world. Companies aren't going to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars training people who have no experience.
I object to the idea that I am as substitutable as a bag of rice or a tonne of pig iron.
In terms of your value to your employer, is it not true?
I work for humans, so: Nope.
If you don't like the way I just passive-aggressively took your glib, evidenceless hipster comeback and repeated it back it to you, don't spout that sort of passive aggressive childish crap. If you want adult conversations, you know where to find us.
I simply believe that American workers should get first crack at all economic opportunities in this country and that it is unjust to make Americans compete with foreign nationals for jobs.
Oddly enough, right now, the USA skims the world's talent this way. You get to tax the brightest, you get to profit from the companies they found here, the people they employ here, the business they do here.
I'm here on the E3. Australia has turned up for every US war since Korea. Our blood is mixed with yours in the mud of a dozen nations on four continents, including ours.
Our reward, as one of my colleagues quipped, is that the US gets to take our brightest people.
If he does want "protectionism to lead to higher wages for Americans", why is that wrong? The purpose of any government is to advance the interests of its own citizens first and foremost.
>Oddly enough, right now, the USA skims the world's talent this way. You get to tax the brightest, you get to profit from the companies they found here, the people they employ here, the business they do here.
I agree with you that inviting the world's brightest to come here certainly benefits America, but the system is being abused to bring in average foreign employees to the detriment of American tech workers(e.g., the Disney case). This practice should end, with H1B focused on extraordinary candidates only.
>I'm here on the E3. Australia has turned up for every US war since Korea. Our blood is mixed with yours in the mud of a dozen nations on four continents, including ours.
This is a bizarre comment; what relevance does it have? Should H1B favor military allies rather than the best candidates? Why does someone else's wartime sacrifice justify your presence here? Does their sacrifice nullify American sovereignty? If the people or their representatives decide to limit the flow of foreign workers, that is their right and that right supersedes any non-Americans privilege to come here.
>Our reward, as one of my colleagues quipped, is that the US gets to take our brightest people.
America isn't "taking" your brightest people, like some form of intellectual impressment. Those people are exercising free will and -choosing- to come here, as you seem more than happy to have done.
Yes, this is exactly what I want. This is social justice for American workers.
>> If the people or their representatives decide to limit the flow of foreign workers, that is their right and that right supersedes any non-Americans privilege to come here.
Exactly. I've never spent a single day in India and I wouldn't dream of telling the Indian people how to run their country, nor would I tell them that acting in the best interests of their citizens is somehow wrong.
Yet with H1-B, I feel like huge corporations and foreign nationals are exploiting the system in a way that produces profoundly unjust outcomes for American workers.
But I agree with you, go ahead and remove the H1b visa and send all of us back home. All I then ask is that Indian government enacts laws similar to China (which I think it will, given the current Prime Minister of India) and blocks US companies from operating freely in India, so Indians get a shot at building their own Google, Facebook and Uber. Force local companies to use homegrown cloud rather than the one that Amazon and MSFT sells. After all why use services of these companies if you don't get a chance at building them. Make it a patriotic mission not to use IT from US firms and build it ourselves. To steal your words, anything less of a response than that is deeply and tragically wrong.
Remember, europeans built ships and explored the world because turks closed access land route via Constantinople. Go ahead provide us with that impetus, we will compete with US firms on a global stage.
I can totally understand how you might feel like it's an attack against you personally, but it isn't.
Abuse of the H1-B system has created profoundly unjust outcomes for American workers, and as an American citizen I feel like I should speak out against programs that are harmful to my fellow citizens.
>> But I agree with you, go ahead and remove the H1b visa and send all of us back home. All I then ask is that Indian government enacts laws similar to China (which I think it will, given the current Prime Minister of India) and blocks US companies from operating freely in India, so Indians get a shot at building their own Google, Facebook and Uber.
>> Make it a patriotic mission not to use IT from US firms and build it ourselves.
I wish you and India nothing but success and prosperity no matter what path you and your country choose!
India should absolutely do what needs to be done to protect its citizens and put them first in line for economic opportunities. Just like they do right now!
>> Go ahead provide us with that impetus, we will compete with US firms on a global stage.
Competition for US firms, in concert with ending the H1-B would produce best of both world results for Americans, both as employees and as consumers. I absolutely welcome any alternative to companies like Amazon, Google, and Facebook.
PS: I was sarcastic in my previous comment, only to highlight the fact that protectionism in US will be met with protectionism in other countries as well and thats terrible for human progress and well being.
// After 10 years of living in this country I have sincerely come to believe that majority people in this country support open societies based on merit rather than closed ones based on alliances and privilege of birth.
The world has known only ONE model of peace (yes world peace, look at the metrics), and that is globalized trade, take that away and we'll be back at each other throats.
This seems ripe for a reference request. When has there been either globalized trade or a period of sustained world peace? I'm most definitely skeptical, and would happily be convinced otherwise.
[1] https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/matthew-o-jackson-can-...
I think statements like "The world has known only ONE model of peace" don't reflect the nuance of the claims made by your references. For example, the hypothesis of "The Impact of War on Trade: An Interrupted Times-Series Study" is "trade promotes peace".
The Jackson paper[0] includes a stronger statement: "In the context of the alliances we have analyzed, trade motives are essential to avoiding wars and sustaining stable networks,", but all like all good science, acknowledges "in the context of the alliances we have analyzed".
Like I said, the premises and findings of these papers make sense to me, and I don't find them surprising, but I don't think they support such an absolute statement.
Thanks again for the links! I wouldn't have likely have come across them otherwise. Good stuff!
Because I'm not ashamed.
Jobs are a bedrock social justice issue in the United States. H1-B creates( and will continue to create ) profoundly unjust outcomes for American workers.
>> The world has known only ONE model of peace (yes world peace, look at the metrics), and that is globalized trade, take that away and we'll be back at each other throats.
Social justice for all is a basic requirement for peace in all groups regardless of scale.
Train and retrain your workforce as much as needed on the tax payers dime, but you are never guaranteed a job.
How many times are you going to repeat this?
You should be wary of protectionism.