YC has a choice: do what IBM did in the 1930's or not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust
And before you say I'm "going Godwin," remember: It was Sam and Paul who've said they think Trump is a threat of similar proportions. If Sam really thinks that, the moral thing to do is cut ties.
And yes, it'll be hard. Would have been easier to do before the election. It will only get harder.
Right now we don't really know which of his promises he plans on actually keeping.
(Also, if the Holocaust had only consisted of mass deportations it wouldn't be nearly as bad or remembered. Have some perspective.)
We already tried this and have seen the results. We rounded up and deported more than a million Mexicans twice in our history. It is remembered, California apologized for their hand in it a couple of years ago.
Millions of families could be uprooted, torn apart and be left stranded without ID, possessions or money[1] and left to die[2]. Mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters, friends, neighbors, co-workers and classmates could disappear.
My perspective is that 'exactly as bad as the Holocaust' isn't the bar to pass to be a potential tragedy.
I didn't make a comparison to the Holocaust, but since we're there: deportation and mass ordered removal is part of what made the Holocaust a tragedy. It took years of deportations (of the traditional sense), forced relocations and imprisonment before people were shipped to the ovens in droves.
[1] http://immigrationimpact.com/2016/04/07/deported-immigrants-...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback#Consequences
When Trump suspends the constitution and starts a continental war with Mexico and Canada. And sends Six million Jews including his own daughter to be exterminated in gas chambers then we can compare him to Hitler.
Until such events unfold (I'm not holding my breath) entertaining people who make these ridiculous arguments is like a slow, self inflicted lobotomy.
Clinton advocated for a "Manhattan Project" scope effort to backdoor crypto. She wants no-fly zones over Syria, a place we have NO business being in, to directly provoke proxy wars with Russia. She is extremely antagonistic to freedom of association and free enterprise, and she LOVES the panopticon surveillance state we have.
She is NO FRIEND OF EITHER STARTUPS OR HACKERS, and yet, 99% of you are frothing at the mouth over a man who said bad words 18 years ago.
It is at the point that I don't even think I can do business with any of you ever again.
You'll find that a lot of people in this community actively dislike Clinton. But after the election, she is now essentially irrelevant. So talking about her doesn't advance anything - talking about the upcoming president, however...
Trump is the Torture Candidate. He's on record, he loves torture. He said it on the campaign trail. He could have been Orange Bernie and I would have refused to vote for him.
There are multiple reports and videos of crowds at his rallies chanting "Kill the bitch, "Hang the bitch", and "Lock her up". Trump knew this and condoned the behaviour. He has actively singled out members of the "corrupt media".
I can respect political differences but this is not normal behaviour for a healthy democracy. It's playing with fire - a fire that may burn out quickly, a fire that may smoulder in the background, or a fire that could burn the whole place down. I'm NOT saying Trump is going to start locking people up (I think he is a populist who said what people wanted to hear) but let's not pretend that the concerns people have are only because of his crude comments about women and minorities.
As I said, it's not about the normal left vs right ideology - Obama and Bush both supported policies that greatly concern me (mass surveillance, drone strikes against US citizens without trial etc). But neither Bush or Obama used this type of rhetoric about their political opponents.
I do not see any healthy democratic virtue there at the DNC. It looks a lot like third world political intimidation tactics and violence.
http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/24/leaked-emails-show-dnc-off...
I don't recall any time that Trump or anyone at the RNC 'openly condoning violence against specific people'. If there is some proof of this I would like to see it.
- http://www.mediaite.com/online/trump-tells-crowd-to-knock-th... "Knock the crap out of them" complete with video and offers to pay legal fees
- https://thinkprogress.org/donald-trump-my-fans-were-right-to... - "Maybe he should have been roughed up." on Fox and Friends
- https://www.yahoo.com/news/donald-trump-punch-him-in-the-fac... - "He's smiling [a protestor]. I'd like to punch him. Punch him right in the face."
I find it ... 'odd' ... that you can be so well-informed about DNC issues but have "no recollection" (I love that phrase, works so well when people are being hauled in front of Congress) of any specific issue of violence from Trump or the RNC.
In fact, here you go, someone's collated them all, with evidence:
http://mashable.com/2016/03/12/trump-rally-incite-violence/#...
At least nine video captured incidents:
- "I'll beat the crap out of you"
- "Part of the problem... is no-one wants to hurt each other any more."
- "The audience hit back. We need more of that."
and so on. and so on.
Yeah, no recollection. Because none of these events received much notice...
The DNC sent those protesters to provoke violent confrontation that the Clinton media operatives at the networks could use to craft the narrative that trump was a big baddie.
So while its not the sort of behaviour anyone want to see in an election. The fact remains that the entire scenario was being crafted by the DNC to damage there opponent which is far worse then what happened on the ground.
The use of fake protesters sent to stir up violence at political events is an attack on democracy itself. And an attempt to shut down peoples write to participate in a democratic society. In that light the behaviour of Trump is quite understandable.
Would you let a few paid protesters shut down your political rally?
my solution would certainly not be to say "beat them up, and I'll pay your legal fees for you".
Because paying someone to protest is one thing, inciting others to actual, physical violence and offering to pay 'costs', is a felony.
But let's not pretend that was solely the domain of the DNC.
Trump has stood in front of a camera and called for his supporters to beat people up at his rallies. He's said that people should be punched "right in the face". He's offered to pay legal fees for people charged with assault for attacking protestors.
Also "caught" red handed. Except he was openly advocating for it.
Of all the things Trump has ever said or done in his life these 2 things aren't even close to the worst and were pretty poor choices for this argument.
Both of these examples are just a reflection of many people's anger with the status quo, globalism, elitism, whatever you want to call it. People are pissed at government. This is happening around the world.
Now, you might still not like him. Heck, let me take a bold step and say you won't like him. He will do things you won't like. Welcome to the real world. My government's been doing things I don't like my entire life. (Along with all the things I do like.) But I rate the odds that he's going to ethnically cleanse the US at "as close to 0 as I can mathematically get".
In the event that he really does turn into Hitler, I promise to stand up to stop him along with all the other people who will. I'm not too worried about having to follow through on that, though.
(If you want to talk about which candidates tend to murder their way out of problems... well... I'll freely admit to not having proof but Trump wasn't the one I was worried about that.)
This is what all those news articles lately have been about. You're too insulated from the rest of the country if you seriously think ~50% of the nation just voted for Hitler. That card's played out... every Republican's been [expletive] Hitler if you listen to the Democrats. That's election propaganda. Time to put that away. I mean, ideally we wouldn't all swallow it in the first place, but time to put it away.
I'd love to find out that it was all 100% manufactured and none of it ever happened or was true. But, y'know, it all did happen and was true. And it elected a candidate who began his campaign on explicitly racist (build a wall and deport all the "Mexican rapists") and xenophobic (ban all the Muslims) lines.
I understand that you feel strongly about this, but it's not illegal to hate someone. If there are people being threatened or harmed, we do have police and the general rule of law to handle those things. It's not like trump runs the government now!
Despite emotional currents we are mostly peaceful domestically. Our institutions are still democratic in nature. Trump has to share power with the other pillars of government.
We are very, very far from anything resembling naziism. No amount of hatred expressed in speech is equivalent. Action is required.
That's a vacuous argument. No one's Hitler except Hitler. No one called him Hitler except in your strawman. We can only judge the President-elect on what his stated plans are.
And one of his plans is literally to make Muslims register the same way Jews were made to register before the Holocaust. IBM faced an analogous choice: cut ties for moral reasons or preserve the relationship for expediency's sake.
The historical precedent is germane.
Well, that's nice - although you just agreed to something you believe won't happen.
I don't believe he will, either; but are you standing up to what his electorate is doing?
http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/11/trump-voters-threatened-wome...
Take it from someone who saw what Brexit did to the UK: Your country, by electing someone with an unpleasant set of views on race/religion, has implicitly given free reign to people with even more unpleasant views on those to do whatever they want and not fear repercussions because... after all, they've been told they're in the majority now.
I suspect it's easier to promise to stand up to the "as close to 0 as you can mathematically get" than to address problems that are happening today.
And I believe that our country was already giving free reign to those with "unpleasant views". For instance, I don't think it's a coincidence that race relations have generally considered to be getting worse over the past several years: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/24/us/poll-shows-most-america... I'm a pragmatist. If people are all saying or doing the right things in the leadership but the race relations are getting worse, then clearly they are not saying or doing the right things.
Tell me: Where's the Godwin line, exactly? You railed against ubernostrum just because he compared a current situation to one in the 1930s and what you get out of this is that America's safe: should Trump turn into Hitler, America is safe because you, and surely lots of others, will stand up to the government!
Goody. Well, I feel better now, whew!
You're a pragmatist, right? So tell me: Where is that point where you, and many others, stand up to the growing problem? Is it when the people rise up and protest? (They already have.) Is it when people start dying? (Many are). Or do you wait until a wall is being built, religions are being rejected at the border and the targeted groups are being threatened on the street?
Where is that fucking line? Do thousands have to die? Does it have to be tens, hundreds of thousands? Is it when it hits 7 digits?
You won't stand up to all this nonsense? Fine. I fully realize you don't have the logistics for it. Nobody does.
No worries, you won't have to -- an ethnic cleansing is, as you said, mathematically close to 0. And really, there'll be nobody left by the time it gets to that point, because you're not standing up now.
If people down vote or flag your comment are you going to complain?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnQNFBHHs6w
Oh wait no, sorry, that's a group of leftists literally beating up an old man 10v1 because he's white and might have voted for Trump. Sorry, you were saying something about people not fearing repercussions?
Take a long, hard look at both my post and yours and ask yourself what point you're attempting to make (and if you somehow don't come up empty, please share it with the rest of the class - I'd love to know at least).
It's also unfair to say that the act of electing Trump is implicitly condoning this kind of behavior, which is absurd. ~60 million people voted for Trump. A tiny minority will use it as an excuse to commit violence and crime. Just like a tiny minority of Hillary supporters will use the election of Trump to commit violence and crime (See video).
Now, you use Brexit as an example where ordinary people who didn't agree with the direction the country was going and wanted a change, somehow turned to violence. I'd need to see some evidence of this because here's an article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3805008/The-great-Br...) that provides direct evidence from your police force that hate crimes did not significantly increase. Here's a sample from the article:
"However, its footnote added that 85 people had logged hate crime ‘incidents’ on True Vision, a website that records unverified allegations of such behaviour, during the four days in question, up from 54 during the corresponding period a month earlier.
What exactly did this mean? The police press release made things clear. ‘This should not be read as a national increase in hate crime of 57 per cent but an increase in reporting through one mechanism’ over a single 96-hour period."
And the next section is a series of images that were used as propaganda citing a 57% increase in hate crimes since brexit used by anti-brexit campaigners. A direct contradiction to your police force's analysis of the statistics.
The idea that somehow ordinary people turn into racist criminals is just wrong. So there, I shared with the class. I hope your condescending response made you feel smug and happy inside. Made me feel good to drop police stats to prove my case. Why don't you go ahead and share your stats with the class that suggest an uptick in violence due to "implicit" permission.
Bullying is exponential. The acts of hatred I linked have been happening for a long time, but elections such as Brexit and Trump are validation for such behaviour. They tell the population: "You have more support than you thought you did".
The filter bubbles, the disconnect that everybody talks about? That amplifies that behaviour as well. It makes people feel like the violence is justified. And yes this happens on both sides, but this isn't a fucking contest.
I'll also note that you're linking the Daily Mail, which is the lowest quality rag in the UK and is extremely biased. I don't want to argue numbers because that's not what this is about -- It's a controversial subject in the UK and I'm well aware both "sides" exaggerate everything. What I can tell you is that there was a surge of violence following the vote because of the validating effect it has.
> The idea that somehow ordinary people turn into racist criminals is just wrong
Dude, really, this isn't what I claimed anywhere. You wrote a whole fucking post arguing numbers which I didn't bring up, fighting a point which I didn't make. Only reason I'm replying is because you put effort into it, but really, step out of your damn bubble for a bit and stop seeing the world in such black and white terms.
I told you to take a look at my post and yours - you failed that basic task. All you managed to do is make assumptions, craft an entire narrative around my post and then proceed to argue that narrative you yourself built.
Ordinary people may not turn into racist criminals, but it sure highlights how people like you can turn into insufferable trolls with very little effort.
"Take it from someone who saw what Brexit did to the UK: Your country, by electing someone with an unpleasant set of views on race/religion, has implicitly given free reign to people with even more unpleasant views on those to do whatever they want and not fear repercussions because... after all, they've been told they're in the majority now."
You argued that there would be an increase in "do whatever they want", which I take to mean crimes (assault, robbery, hate crimes, etc) by people who feel empowered by a majority.
You cited anecdotal evidence as an example (take it from me, I experienced brexit...) to back up your claim there would be an increase in crime. I cited a source ("rag" or not, they cited direct quotes from the police and the police's own analysis of the statistics that there wasn't an exponential increase) to prove the idea that there is some kind of magical "exponential" increase in crime to be false.
My point is that electing Trump is not going to cause this increase because the vast majority of ordinary citizens will not turn into criminals exponentially.
If someone is willing to say that they would stand up to an ethnic cleansing, I think it's reasonable to ask them at what point they'll stand up to it.
I do find cultural bigotry to be odious though and to answer your question, I will not protect the rights of people to threaten and kill others. I will not defend a culture that promotes the exclusion of classes of people by skin color, religion, accent, gender or even political leanings.
I don't know why you're asking me what mechanism would make this work. People's unhappiness has very little impact on whether policies work. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this discussion, as the things I refuse to defend would not be happening in the first place.
> Your country, by electing someone with an unpleasant set of views on race/religion, has implicitly given free reign to people with even more unpleasant views on those to do whatever they want and not fear repercussions because... after all, they've been told they're in the majority now.
If you want these people to not feel free to express their opinions then you want some other thing. Feel free to explain what, if I misconstrued.
The more divisive the vote is, the more violent the winner gets. Bullying is easier when you have the numbers.
America just elected someone who actively encouraged beating people up at rallies. The fallout is going to suck.
I personally prefer to let the people with the ugly opinions have their say so I know who they are and I can engage them. The plan to keep them in hiding can only work until they feel too much pressure and explode, which is just what happened
I guess what I'm saying is what you seem to be advocating is what just failed. I don't think going back to it will work either.
Right, I'm definitely not attacking that. I'm also not really advocating for anything -- thankfully I haven't been put in charge of the mess that the US is, so I don't have to find a solution for it all by myself. I was just saying I won't defend such things.
If I did, though, it'd probably involve education and systemic changes. Like you said, "hiding" the problem didn't, doesn't and never will work. I don't believe that Hillary would have made any changes to the system, so if anything 2020 could have been a worse election (whereas now, I'm reasonably certain that unless Trump does exceptionally well this cycle [or exceptionally badly], Warren will be president the next).
These are all theoretical fixes to a system that's broken today, though. People are being bullied in the streets, at their work etc. When do people stand up to that?
Yesterday somebody was lamenting that people shouldn't say "democracy is gone" when it's working exactly as intended. This here isn't what's intended. Two sides fighting to the point that further escalation would result in civil war? The extreme demonization of democrats, republicans, mexicans, muslims, blacks, old people, christians, atheists and whatever demographic favours one side over the other? Seeing the immediate aftermath of the election, I fear that America really is falling apart.
I mean, here in Europe, people are saying left and right that the EU is falling apart because of Brexit and a general sentiment against globalization. The US has it worse now. I'm starting to wonder if there'll still be 50 states in a few years.
hitler was seen to be pretty crazy to most "moderate" germans too and he wasn't voted in as the führer with absolute power. he slowly worked his way up in popularity until he became chancellor. then he worked to slowly build up members of the NSDAP into positions of power until no one could oppose him. then he began suppressing the opposition.
the lesson about hitler in germany is not, "don't vote in an extreme dictator" the lesson about hitler is that a person can assume power legally and still end up with total control without the will of the people.
you "promise" to stand up to trump if he becomes this. but by the time you realize what's going on. it'll be too late.
now i'm not saying trump is going to become hitler. the reason everyone is scared now is because he is following similar blueprints to hitler or other fascists. most of the time these type of leaders just become any other "normal" leader and do their term and let power go democratically and i honestly hope that happens because that's the best case.
but if he goes through with everything he promises. it'll be very scary. trumps call to south korea president assuring her that us forces would remain was very assuring for the stability of asia, so i have some hope.
this is almost a version of the boy who cried wolf. too many people have cried hitler and now no one believes it or just dismisses it outright.
I think this will become more clear once the man has a chance to lead for a few months. That no, he's not going to try to dispatch paddywagons to round up all the illegals, no he's not going to try to require all Muslim citizens to enter some sort of registry... but he is going to tell all the people who spent the 10 years becoming legal citizens that there time was well-spent, and send a message to the people like Syed Farook that they will have a much harder time walking through CBP.
The same can be said of racism, sexism, misogyny etc.
You have done more to de-stigmatize these words then the people who espouse the ideology have ever been able to do. It has made the accusation in itself a clownish eye rolling gesture to the general public. Rather then something to take seriously.
No one with any credibility is going to compare the President elect of the United States to Hitler. Its a pantomime act that the disgraced 'Media' and Twitter nobodies do to entertain one another.