Apple selling a $79 MacBook Pro power adapter without a USB-C cable goes too far | Hacker News Reader

Apple selling a $79 MacBook Pro power adapter without a USB-C cable goes too far

9to5mac.com

109 pointslisper85 comments

It seems obvious that Apple is trying to reach iPhone-like levels of gross margin in the Mac lineup. Prices of the new Macbook Pros are getting ridiculous.

I'm pretty sure that's why they are getting out of the display business; they wouldn't be able to sustain their ridiculous margins, so they leave that part to someone else.

I think you nailed it. Their 40% gross profit margin is quite infuriating. Particularly since they're just milking the franchise by now, rather than actually innovating.

I'm ever curious about this topic - what do you define as innovation?

Innovation means doing something new, doesn't it?

The last Apple-ish innovation I saw out of Apple was that "magic" touch-pad that just feels like you're pressing it down, even though you are not.

What they have done recently with the new Macbook Pro and iPhone 7 does not really qualify as "innovation" - they have reduced functionality (CPU power/battery and headphone jack, respectively) - and in turn made the goods thinner and prettier.

Some people might say that OLED display they installed on top of the keyboard instead of old-school function keys might be an innovation. I disagree - it's not functional (it changes over time, non-newbies don't look at the keyboard, it kills muscle-memory), but it's so, so, pretty. Hence it's another step towards a piece of jewelry rather than something that just works.

They did add an OLED touch bar that no other laptop has, to my knowledge. Does that not count? Why not?

I just added something on that via editing, sorry, didn't think you'd be that fast.

Well I appreciate your explanation of your thoughts, although my feelings are that it's far to early to be so dismissive of something people haven't really used yet.

I'll grant it may turn out to be a useless bauble, but I'm old enough to remember people saying that about the mouse, too.

>Innovation means doing something new, doesn't it?

In the consumer space innovation means putting something in the market in a novel way (and especially one that matters to people). Not discovering something from scratch, consumer electronics are not about basic research.

I.e. we had tons of mp3 players before the iPod, but it was how it was put together that made it better (for the millions who increasingly adopted it).

>The last Apple-ish innovation I saw out of Apple was that "magic" touch-pad that just feels like you're pressing it down, even though you are not.

They design their own industry leading chips and logic boards for the iPhone and Apple Watch, they do haptic engines, they did novel engineering to water-proof the watch, the work with new materials all the time, they put out new enhanced gamut displays, they have a great new wireless audio processor they designed, they created and put out a new graphics API and a whole new programming language (Swift), and several other things besides, all in the span of the last 5 years.

>I disagree - it's not functional (it changes over time, non-newbies don't look at the keyboard, it kills muscle-memory

It's like expensive professional touch control boards -- it can greatly enhance productivity for lots of professional domains, from mixing colors for paint apps to skipping frames in a NLE or applying filters (multitouch too) through sliders in a DAW, etc.

It's also a fully programmable secondary multi-touch display, tons of things can be done with it per app. Muscle memory is still retained as long as the virtual keys fall in the same place per app -- same as keyboard shortcuts, that change between different pro apps, but pro users still remember each set.

Yvon Chouinard is the owner of the clothing company Patagonia and knows something about innovation. (He has revolutionized the outdoor industry many times over.)

His definition of "invention" is that it is the creation of something new.

His definition of "innovation" is that it is the application of invention to solve a problem. Patagonia did not invent wicking polyester fibers. But they used them to make the first wicking polyester long underwear, which radically changed how people thought about long underwear for outdoor sports.

This definition works great for Apple too. They don't invent much. But they innovate a lot. And yes the touch bar counts, even if you don't like it.

dual rear camera that can achieve a photo effect (bokeh) that was possible in earlier smartphone

Well all other vendors are selling for much less profit. If margin is really an issue others would end up having windfall.

But all the other vendors suck. We're all having this conversation because we hold Apple to a higher standard. And more pragramatically speaking, because we're tied to OS X, which is really the only desktop OS that does not suck immensely on a laptop.

and THATS why we pay the 40% margin.

the choices are: buy a desktop OS that sucks immensely from from a vendor who sucks, or pay a mere 40% extra.

feels cheap to me.

>> But all the other vendors suck.

...

> buy a desktop OS that sucks immensely from from a vendor who sucks

Come on guys! If you want to buy Apple, then buy Apple. No need to crap on EVERYONE ELSE like this to justify your choices.

>But all the other vendors suck.

And you think the 40% margin has nothing to do with that?

The margins on their displays was surely massive. They were in the order of 2x as expensive as equivalent Dell models. I think it was probably volumes, not margins, that had them drop the thunderbolt display.

Too far? Apple is a luxury good. You are buying the Prada, the Audi/BMW/Benz/etc of laptops - they position themselves at the high end market and will extract as much margin as they can from that market. These price increases follow suit with their aspirational positioning. There is no "too far", just what their target market with a lot of discretionary income will still purchase.

There is a "too far". When it slides from being an expensive good tool to a very expensive luxury item mostly used for show. It's a lot easier to be pretty than to solve (new) problems.

Of course, their watch foreshadowed all of this. They are not interested in solving problems; they want to turn into a Prada/Chanel/Hermes/LV style super luxury brand.

> they want to turn into a Prada/Chanel/Hermes/LV style super luxuary brand.

The Watch Edition showed that there's a step too far for them, but it's not the definition you used. Nobody bought the thing. We had to get into the five figures for that to happen, though, and it's because Apple didn't fully understand the luxury watch market isn't entirely driven by how expensive the thing is.

That said, Apple has been pushing the luxo market for quite some time, even before the watch. There has almost always been cheaper items than Apple products that fulfill roughly the same niche. iPhones are often a status symbol, and now having the newest one is, now that they are ubiquitous.

The fact that they are somehow supremely useful sometimes falls out for the sake of design. Remember the little iPod shuffle that had absolutely no buttons that they marketed like jewelry? What about the headphone-less iPhone 7 or the Thunderbolt 3 / USB-C only new MBP? Going older, what about the 20th Anniversary Mac, the G4 Cube, or the iMac which didn't come with a floppy drive and nearly everyone bought that Bondi Blue SuperDrive thing?

I think you're missing the point. We all looked to Apple for technical, user-focused innovation.. now all we're getting is a good-looking and expensive things that's best sold in a jewelers shop.

I really can't see this working out for them in the long run. (In the short term, sure.)

I believe that you are taking too much stock in believing that you and your needs are Apple's primary market now. Software developers are but a small niche compared to Apple's worldwide consumer base, and they are developing for their market at large, that buys these products for the social signaling and never use 30% of their capabilities. They want good looking and expensive things, and the capabilities of the devices Apple is producing is an improvement over the last iteration as well as still above the common consumer's resource consumption to start.

I'm not speaking as a software developer now. I think it's an established fact that "normal" people love (loved) Apple products because they "just work" (worked). The prettiness is a nice bonus, but they key thing was always the concept of "things just working".

I now see Apple moving their focus from "just working" to "pretty", while raising prices.

Are you unfamiliar with USB-C? It offers some obvious benefits to users.

The Watch Edition never needed to sell. It just needed to exist as a thing that could set your price expectations: "That one is just too far, but I guess I could pay $399."

a prada bag comes with its straps, gratis. an audi's battery is connected to the engine for no extra charge.

Audi is premium?

> There is no "too far", just what their target market with a lot of discretionary income will still purchase.

How do you know the author does not fall into that category?

Apple is a premium brand, not a luxury one. Premium products are mass marketed and justify their price premium with higher quality and useful extra features. Luxury products are niche targeted and justify their price premium with exclusivity and unnecessary extra features.

Put it this way: an iPhone is premium, manufactured in the millions. A gold iPhone is luxury, manufactured in the thousands.

Apple equipment isn't just premium or luxury, it's truly better built and engineered than the average or high end laptop PC. It's only been a year or two that PC's have started catching up, with machines like the zenbook 3, x1, etc.

Is there a reason why the power adapter wouldn't include a USB-C cable? Can it be used without it? Does the power adapter work with older Macs using a different cable?

I'm not trying to forgive apple, I'm trying to understand why/how a decision like this could be made.

My only guess is they figure you can take the cable with you. Assuming the wall wart is easy to access to plug and unplug.

If you bother wrapping up your cable to stuff it in your bag, you might as well put the brick in too.

The only reason I can think of, is you can use a USB-C-to-Lightning cable and use it as a fast charger for iPad Pro.

Eh? They can put the intended cable in the box, any other use you want to get out of it - bring your own cable.

This is selling a device that is not fit for purpose especially since apple says to use their chargers and cables only.

That's like saying they shouldn't sell cables on their own because they don't come with anything to plug them into.

Perhaps most people who buy an adapter do it to replace an old one, so you can use the old cable.

I prefer things modular like this. It lets me re-use / buy the right length cable for the use-case. The only problem I see is the price here.

The prior generation of MBP didn't use USB-C for laptop charging, though, so nobody except Macbook Air users would be doing this.

(I don't know if all USB-C cables were required to be able to carry 87W, so I'd be slightly wary of reusing cables for that at the moment, too...)

edit: someone downthread pointed out that the laptop itself comes with the USB-C cable you'd use for this, so this makes more sense now.

My suggestion is there's 19 reasons times the number of people who buy a second or third charger...

The best reasons I can think of are:

1. Combating e-waste. Pack-in cables are convenient but not always needed.

2. It encourages people to buy and use the appropriate length cable for their needs. With USB-C it's a lot harder to include a 'good for most people' length because the cable connected to the laptop for charging doesn't have to connect directly to the DC adapter.

> But I discovered that Apple did have one more hidden extra cost in store for 2016 MacBook Pro buyers

This seems like an extremely misguided article. The overwhelming majority of users don't buy extra power adaptors. I'd wager that most power adaptors that are purchased are to replace the old power adaptor (because it was damaged or lost). So no, this is not a hidden cost in store for MBP buyers, this is a "hidden cost" in store for the handful of people who like to buy 2 spare power adaptors to go with their brand new computer.

I have one for each of my desk setups at work and home. I don't think I'm the majority in any way but I don't think it's that uncommon either.

USB-C cables are cheap enough anyways as long as you find one that can handle the power and amperage

Similar here. I have one for home, one for traveling with. When the travel one starts to get too worn out, I'll swap them.

Everybody that I've ever worked with (that uses an MBP) has an external monitor at work, and external monitors provide power so you don't need a separate charging brick.

Isn't that limited to Apple displays?

USB-C/Thunderbolt 3 displays can do this too.

I think you might be referring to the thunderbolt display. I run 2 or 3 27" monitors. The thunderbolt displays have not interested me because they haven't been updated in so long. Many developers don't use the apple displays and instead a solid dell, asus, etc as most of their work is text based.

Everybody here at work uses Thunderbolt displays, but with the new MBP, if you're using a USB-C display, it should also provide the same functionality.

Good to know. I'm not sprinting towards the new MBP but look forward to the next gen hardware in that form-factor, not to mention hopefully some very polished and performant usb-c docks

I have at least 5. I may be hard-core, but I have one in my travel bag, one at the office, one in my home office, one in my living room, and one in my bedroom.

Granted, some of these have Magsafe 1 to 2 adapters on them, but those little things are also expensive.

At around $600 for the additional sets, plus probably another $300 for other dongles in quite a few locations, I think I will not be upgrading anytime soon.

There's got to be MagSafe to USB-C adapters on the way, right? It would be crazy if everyone had throw away perfectly functioning transformers, for lack of a cheap adapter. The market opportunity is obvious.

One more time, this is greed. More than ever their North Star (to use an expression of T. Cook) seems to be greed. I'm lucky enough to have enough money to be able to buy their products but lately I seem to have reached a threshold where I think there is something really wrong with their behavior, I'm less and less inclined in enabling them by buying their stuff. First time in years I thought about switching back to Linux as my main system.

The Macbook (2016) itself does come with a USB-C cable for the power adapter right...? Does it?

Yes.

Yes - a fact that most people seem to be forgetting.

People will be less apt to complain when they realize they don't have to replace their entire adapter when they wear down the cable as is the case now.

Although there was no technical reason that the old chargers had to have a moulded-on DC cable. In fact it may have been better from a usability and durability perspective if the DC cable had had a Magsafe connector at each end, one for the PSU and one for the laptop.

And with that design they wouldn't have needed to introduce a new charger at all..

Two complete power supplies for a MacBook Pro cost more than the ThinkPad my dad is running Creative Cloud and Visual Studio and whatever else on.

With huge financial jump in the barrier of entry with these MacBook Pros, and with my Mac Mini no longer being supported with this release of mac OS why would I (and I suppose many others) still want to touch the Mac ecosystem with even a ten-foot pole?

I think Apple is purposely squeezing the line dry for what they can still wring out before they'll jump ship to what can only be called iOS "Pro".

Macs sure are pricy.

I'm pretty sure ThinkPads cost more than $160.

A$266 for two complete power supplies.

I just hopped on eBay and surprisingly lightly used T- or X-series ThinkPads i5 and some i7 for under that price, shipped. Sure, they hold no candle to the MacBook's display. But when you could buy literally ten ThinkPads for a MacBook with effectively the same non-screen specs there's a bit of a gap there.

And I've had way more problems with Apple build quality over the years than ThinkPads.

Two power supplies is $160. The extension cable isn't necessary, and the USB-C cable is just a generic USB-C cable that you can get from anywhere (and in fact you don't even need to get one if you just keep your existing cable with your laptop) And you're also comparing brand new top-of-the-line Apple equipment with used computers.

Alright, I guess I can only buy six or eight lightly used Core i7, 256GB SSD, 8GB upgradeable RAM ThinkPads for the cost of a MacBook Pro instead of 10.

And you're calling a laptop with a Core i5 with integrated graphics "top-of-the-line". I guess top-of-the-line is a distorted concept when the absolute top of the line for the company hasn't been touched in 3 years and that I could outclass by a factor of three in every way for a third of the price.

My point isn't that you can't afford it, good on you. My point is that the barrier of entry for your BRIC or even EU consumer or developer is going to be unreasonable.

And sure, they're going to get their USB-C cables elsewhere. But that guy in Rio is meant to be paying... $4100 for the cheapest device with an official mac OS touch bar for the time being.

Barrier of entry? What the hell are you talking about? You're literally talking about the most expensive laptop Apple has and pretending it has anything at all to do with entry. That's preposterous.

According to around 1:50 of https://youtu.be/zkOKtwiceVw, Apple hid the extension cable inside the box underneath everything else.

Whoa whoa whoa that's awful packaging design

Not sure if that was a joke...

The actual product page says a cable is not included.

http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MNF82LL/A/87w-usb-c-power-...

FYI if you right click in youtube you have the "Copy video URL at current time" option.

Here's the video at 1:50: https://youtu.be/zkOKtwiceVw?t=110

Wrong cable. That video is showing where the extension cable is, not the USB-C cable. And that's talking about the MacBook Pro itself, not buying the power adaptor as a stand-alone product.

This is a joke. There is definitely no extension cable.

https://9to5mac.com/community/does-the-late-2016-macbook-pro...

I don't really care that they're no longer bundling the 2 together. What I DO care about is having to pay $79 for a charger then another $20 for the cable. Those prices are just fked...

Well, I'm at least excited that this cable is a separate piece. I'm tired of needing to get a new macbook charger every time the joint of the white thin wire and the brick gets bent out of shape.

That's not the problem. The problem is there isn't one included with the charger. It doesn't need to be sold only included or only separately.

I understand that problem, I was just pointing out the silver lining :)

They should just rebrand to Apple Accessories co. at this point, because the level of greed is unprecedented.

Author should read Thorstein Veblen's seminal work The Theory of The Leisure Class. There is no "too far" when it comes to conspicuous wealth.

Won't there be third party vendors selling these adapters for much less? If it's just for travel I won't mind using one that's not from Apple.

The gripe seems to be more with the price rather than the lack of a cable per se. Since they sell the cables too.

I suspect one purpose of the gripe is to embed lots of amazon links.

This video explains the rationale from apples point of view - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XSC_UG5_kU

I laughed my ass off :D

> the $69 (13-inch model) or $79 (15-inch model) power adapter

I wonder why they have two separate adapters and couldn't make one for both. Seems to add a bit of fragmentation.

I do not know if the prices were different in the past, but 13" laptops previously used a 60W power adapter, while the 15" used an 80W

Interesting. I figured it was the same, like how the iPhone and iPhone Plus is the same...

They should make a magic power adaptor. Since using USB C. If plugged in start charging it at like 60W and then once the computer is booted up it could use the data part of USB C to tell the adaptor to change if possible. Then when the cable is unplugged from the laptop or adaptor then go back to 60W...

I also wonder if its any bad if people plugged their iPhone's into these power bricks too hmm.

Up to now, any Apple laptop could use any power adapter. I regularly plug my 2012 MacBook Air into the brick for my 2008 MacBook Pro. I will be VERY surprised if that is not the case anymore.

Probably the main reason to build different bricks is so that the smaller lighter laptop also has a smaller lighter brick.

It's just a USB Type C brick. I have several (from various vendors including Apple) and use them with different (non-Apple) cables, including those with Type C on one end and micro A on the other. No big deal.

Those adaptors should outlast your device and are hopefully relatively future proof.

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