Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

The crime level however is not so much increasing as it is always painted by interested lobbyists. For anyone looking for a deep dive: https://www.bka.de/SiteGlobals/Forms/Suche/Expertensuche_For... (Wikipedia link is broken).

Of course stats fluctuate and one always can find things that increase and that is reported. Context is usually left out. In 2015 it was increase of cars reported stolen (about half are recovered later). Here are the numbers:

2015: 35.941 (19.391)

2014: 34.653 (18.549)

2013: 35.696 (19.395)

2012: 34.176 (18.554)

2011: 35.564 (19.318)

Yes, there were more cars reported as stolen in 2015 than in 2013. But looking beyond the headlines there were even more recovered. Either funding of police increased, police became more effective or thieves more stupid.

Clearly there are areas where crime is on the rise. But then there are also areas where crime is falling. It is always easier to grow than making these adjustments. But in a not so fast growing society not all of these shifts are avoidable.

In the case of Belgium and The Netherlands, there probably is. A sizable minority of Belgians speak French, not Dutch, and due to poorer economic prospects they might also make up more than half the prison population.

But I assume that for people arrested for crimes in the Dutch speaking part, being jailed by someone you can't understand is Your Own Damn Fault. I mean, if they arrest Eastern Europeans then what are they going to do? Get prison wards to learn a bunch of Slav/Russian dialects?

Edit: Checking the facts, over 60% of the prison population is not actually Belgian, and this EC report: http://www.cpt.coe.int/documents/bel/2012-19-inf-eng.htm

"34. At the time of the 2009 periodic visit, the Belgian authorities had stated that, in principle, French-speaking prisoners were not considered for transfer to Tilburg Prison. Two years later, it has to be said that almost 20% of the prisoners - Belgian or foreign - in Tilburg are French speakers. Consequently, a not inconsiderable proportion of the prison's inmates find it difficult to communicate on a day-to-day basis with the Dutch staff, most of whom speak little or no French. The delegation also noted that the instructions on what to do in the event of fire breaking out, displayed in the cells, appear in Dutch, Arabic, Turkish and English, but not in French. Such communication difficulties are not without significant consequences during official administrative procedures, particularly of a disciplinary (see paragraph 36) or medical nature. The delegation took note of the efforts made by the Dutch prison staff to improve their knowledge of French. However, the CPT invites the authorities to limit as far as possible the transfer of French-speaking prisoners to Tilburg Prison. "

highlights that the French speakers are out of luck although reasonable efforts are done for them.

Of course, if your point is that certain people are beyond help, then I guess you can always find examples where this is true and then maybe you can set certain rules specific for those extreme cases.

But I think that doesn't invalidate the GP's point. In most cases helping the person recover is actually possible so it's worth giving that road a try.

That's why there also is involuntary commitment (TBS), where many people are in so-called "long stay" for decades, often until death, but that has been ruled against the declaration of human rights, so there is a possibility of getting released (which, afaik, has never been granted yet)

are you suggesting he should be locked up for a very long time for committing a lot of petty crimes?

What sort of bank do prison owning CEOs make?

And I think folks should be. I'm American, the land of petty imprisonments and punishments lasting long after prison time is served. The system here seems to produce much better outcomes for both the people imprisoned and the community around them.

Prisons cost money.

Also, 14/21 years is about 20-25% of one's life. I think that's quite a lot, really.

Seems you're the one who isn't giving much value to the prisoner's life here.

If rehabilitation can't be accomplished in 14 years, it won't be accomplished in 20 or 30 either so what's the point of keeping them inside an arbitrary number of years after that?

edit: I just noticed you referred to imprisonment as punishment on another thread; that's where we differ in belief.

Correct, it's a schizophrenic situation that pro-legalization and liberal parties have been trying to solve for a while.

However, since 2002 more conservative, christian and/or centre-right parties have been ruling who ideally want to criminalize again so it's not getting solved any time soon.

At some point they even decided not to file a police report below 3Kg of cocaine smuggling from the Dutch Antilles. Why? There were just too many doing it and the justice system couldn't handle it.

I was pointing to a World Bank study describing what actually happened, which is very different from what you said.

https://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=174...

> Police response and capabilities are comparable to other Western European countries. Professionalism and competence are high, and corruption and tolerance of corruption are low.

> Crime Rating: Low

> Although rare, violent crime does happen

> travel by road is relatively safe in comparison to some other European countries

What's worrying about that? The neighbourhood watchman was violently attacked and successfully defended himself.

That particular incident seems to demonstrate that the neighbourhood watch existed for a reason.

So you are not comparing The Netherlands to other countries but instead to it's past self? That isn't clear at all from your post.

And you have evidence that the crime rate is increasing?

In rural areas people experience more crime than before and the police is not that willing to solve cases.