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Comment by nostrademons | Hacker News Reader

I am (somewhat deliberately, since this thread was initially about Brexit + Trump being part of a more general trend) conflating what Trump said about immigration with what his supporters have said about immigration. Trump's proposal was about illegal immigration. I actually think that as president he's going to be a lot more moderate than many on the left fear.

I'm also pretty sure that there are supporters of his that actually want to send all immigrants back to where they came from. "America for Americans", right? And most of the hypotheticals in this thread are about what happens if that wing of the party gets its way and pushes through rather extremist legislation.

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> conflating what Trump said about immigration with what his supporters have said about immigration

Please find me a single example of this. I haven't heard a single republican ever complain about legal immigration.

As long as the person immigrating has the right color skin and prays to the right god.

I think that what people are trying to explain is that that kind of shaming, accusatory, intentional, mischaracterization of the 'right' is what caused us to now have Trump as our president. You are alienating them.

The kind of people that I know that actually voted for Trump could not care less about the color/religion of a person so long as they had a basic desire to assimilate. In other words; come to America to become an American not to make America like place you left.

Now we have an obligation to understand these Trump voters as generously as possible; or we can berate, belittle, and battle-harden them and get another Trump (or worse) in 8 years.

> understand these Trump voters as generously as possible

Is this likely to be reciprocated?

Not sure how to say this in a way that doesn't sound smug or self-righteous but...that's the price you pay for empathy and at least attempting to take the high road.

There will always be people who don't have the ability, capacity, wherewithal, or life experiences needed to see the bigger picture or recognize the need to put themselves in the shoes of others.

That leaves you with two options: fight "dirty" right back or deal with the reality and accept that you face an uphill battle.

Considering that urban liberals have control over almost all American mass culture/media outlets, yes, we are well aware of how you think what your ideas are.

Is this likely to be reciprocated?

Not in all cases. But you still have to pick your battles.

When faced with opposition you can negotiate or go to war. If you start a war, you'd better be ready to win, or else you stand to lose everything.

And you had better be ready for the moderates to side against you.

I think the question is what it means to be American. To me, it means living and let living, and to accept others no matter who or what they are. To others, it means to be white and Christian.

That's exactly the current, default, ungenerous, belittling view held by democrats. How did that work out?

If you cannot understand them you cannot help them see why Trump is a bad idea.

It seems to me that you've dismissed them, having never thought to put yourself in their shoes; the shoes of the factory worker.

Michael Moore has friends that he likes, that he thinks are good people--not ignorant racists--that voted for Trump and instead of closing his mind to them he's tried to understand >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY-CiPVo_NQ

Maybe you should too...

I mean, as a (legal) immigrant it's hard to believe that that's not the case, when I've been shouted at in the streets and told to go home to my country. Or when my (American born and bred) wife has been heckled for daring to show up wearing a hijab at an Indiana primary by white folks wearing Trump gear. I'm sure there are a lot of good people who voted Trump, but a whole lot of wicked people who threaten me and mine's existence in this country did too.

Nothing I said should leave you believing that some of Trump's supporters aren't xenophobic assholes.

But to now extrapolate from that to imagining that 47% of Americans voted for Trump because they are xenophobic assholes is not going to be a winning strategy.

Right, and I didn't say you said that, nor did I say that all 47% of those Americans are xenophobes. I just said that there are enough who are to make living here uncomfortable for us, even though in all other respects we love this country and would love to spend our lives here.

So, let me be more explicit...

Stop talking about racism/xenophobia in relation to Trump's being elected. You cannot win the ~90% of Trump supporters by linking them with the ~10% of his supporters that are disgusting low lifes. You are distracting people from solving the problem.

It's a legitimate concern that I have that needs to be solved - the fact is that a whole lot of those people who are low-lives have found validation for their perspective with the Trump election. That is a concern for me and my family; I don't feel happy about the fact that my kids will go to school with other kids bullying them and echoing racist crap because the Commander in Chief does so, or because he implies that people from my part of the world are bad. I can't just not bring these concerns up because you think that detracts from the grander scheme of fixing the Trump supporters' problems.

Seems to me like you are disregarding my concerns in the same way you're accusing me of disregarding Trump supporters' concerns.

I agree with you.

I am going beyond what I agree with. My statement is a strict super-set of your's.

Yes, Trump is a morally repugnant person. Yes, he has supporters that are as well. Yes, you should be concerned about both of those issues.

Now, while remaining concerned, let's talk; do you think lambasting 47% of voters--some of whom are (by your own admission) not intrinsically, categorically, irrecoverably, lost--is a good or bad strategy towards avoiding another Trump?

Thanks, I'm glad we agree.

I also agree that lambasting all 47% is a bad idea. I never said that it was good; I just made a statement that a portion of those 47% are horrible people who are emboldened by Trump's demagoguery and will make life difficult for minorities like me (which, as you described is a subset of your statement). I made no comment describing the rest of your statement (perhaps you misread my initial reply to you as a blanket statement when it wasn't meant as such?) and I don't disagree with you on it. I would be very happy if we could find a way to make America work for everyone, rich or poor, white or coloured.

\o/

As long as the person immigrating has the right color skin and prays to the right god

More accurately: comes from a compatible culture and shows an interest and willingness to assimilate.

I have personally had discussions with several Trump supporters who are literally nazis who expressed far worse than what he suggested.

Seriously? You are projecting the opinions of the two or three people you had contact with, on all Trump supporters?

No, I am not. You seem to be projecting opinions onto me that there's no support for in my comment.

I was answering someone who questioned whether there was even a single example of complaints about legal immigration.

And I personally have come across people that wanted to do much worse than deport legal immigrants.

No sir, its not 2 or 3 people, its far too many to count now. I've seen many of these cases where Trump supporters just want to send (legal or not) immigrants to their countries. And yes, not all Trump supporters are the same, but people are using his ill messages as an excuse to express their xenophobia to critical levels.

http://tal.fm/600/1

It's a pretty central issue right now.

This is actually a great example of the current phenomena where left-wing elites draw out the caricatures they want to see from their out-group (lower class or rural whites) and then reinforce it through their echo chambers.

No one at This American Life has any insight into what it means to be a blue collar worker worker.

> Please find me a single example of this.

Please don't hold me to a standard that was not requested. I don't believe there is any evidence that this was drawn out; as far as I can tell, many of the statements are simply recordings of town hall meetings.

You are correct.

I didn't mean to direct that at you, but rather the larger problem of blue collar workers being an out-group of discourse at the national level.

I've heard quite a bit of moaning about H-1Bs.

Talk to more Republicans in more demographics. They want to severely restrict what is considered legal immigration, because they have a problem with certain types of people being here legally.

In my experience, the biggest issue many Republicans have with legal immigrants is that they tend to fervently support anything and everything that could benefit illegal immigrants. The friend of my enemy, etc.

That sounds exactly the opposite of everything I've heard. Legal immigrants are proud of their achievement and tend to negatively view those who circumvent the system that they participated in.

Read Trump's "Contract with the American Voter".

In the "Five actions to restore security and the constitutional rule of law" section is this:

> FIFTH, suspend immigration from terror-prone regions where vetting cannot safely occur. All vetting of people coming into our country will be considered “extreme vetting.”

Here are four examples:

John Derbyshire (http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/orlando-paris-yorkshire-and-d...)

Steve Sailer (http://www.unz.com/isteve/will-the-zeroth-amendment-trump-th...)

Ann Coulter (author of Adios, America: The Left's Plan to Turn Our Country into a Third World Hellhole)

Pat Buchanan (http://buchanan.org/blog/immigration-time-out-163)

> I actually think that as president he's going to be a lot more moderate than many on the left fear.

Just like how he was much more moderate once he got the nominatim and didn't have to appeal to just the republican base?

It's interesting how people can project what Trump will do. Pivot is not something he will do.

Criticizes people for projecting what Trump will do, then projects what Trump will do...

It's more a reflection on how he has operated so far. Also, his own son has stated pivoting is not what Trump will do. What you see is what you get.

My fear with Trump lies exactly in the unknown. He hasn't given very many policy specifics. Traditional Republicans are likely to step in to fill that vacuum. Will Trump push back and force policy to the center, or will he allow Congress to do as they please so long as he comes out with the credit? Hard to say at this point.

I'm also pretty sure that there are supporters of his that actually want to send all immigrants back to where they came from.

They want to protect their culture and values from the effects of mass immigration from people with very different heritage and values who are discouraged from assimilating and encouraged to join in the culture of grievance and victimhood preached by the progressive left. Repatriate everyone is definitely the most extreme position I have seen. A moratorium on all immigration is the next most extreme. Then there's the White Nationalist contingent, they are OK with immigration so long as it is from Europe but not anywhere else. Regardless, there's a general sense that the inflow of illegals must be stopped before any plan for amnesty should be allowed on the table and that the prevailing dogma that the entire world has a fundamental human right to immigrate to the US needs to be rejected completely.

Repealing NAFTA gets rid of the bulk of your legal Canadians and Mexicans on TN status, which is I'd imagine how the bulk of them are there given the low cost, ease and lack of caps of the program.

Isn't America made up almost entirely of immigrants?

Go back far enough, sure. Most people go back to one or two generations after when their ancestors first came to America to set the bar for who's an immigrant.

It's like Ann Coulter's tweet last night where she said nobody should be able to vote unless all 4 of their grandparents were born in America - and then had to put her foot in her mouth when people pointed out that this would disqualify Donald Trump.

The dangerous thing is not about policy or specific proposals but who is empowered. Ann Coulter will be treated as a serious policy voice now because she stood with Trump. See Brexit with Farage, Boris et al.

That's like saying isn't the world made up mostly of Africans? Since it's said that we're all descended from individuals that lived in Africa before anywhere else.

So yeah, as the other poster mentioned, "if you go back far enough". If you go back far enough, we're all relatives, too. But that doesn't necessarily have meaning by itself. It's the individuals that choose to, or choose not to, apply meaning from such a technicality.

It's no more of a "technicality" than the fact that some people happened to be born within the somewhat arbitrary borders of a particular nation, through no effort of their own, and thus happen to be considered citizens of that nation.

> Isn't America made up almost entirely of immigrants?

Even lots of illegal immigrants. :-)

Like, you know, almost everywhere except some bits of Africa

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